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pleasure of \'disagree\'
Thread poster: GILOU

GILOU  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:47
Member (2002)
English to French
Jul 2, 2002

I have noticed some peers who just disagrees for pleasure, in that, they don\'t give an answer to help the asker but they play the severe judges and are useless because they bring no element to the asker. As there is a list of bad payers, there should be a list of bad raters. I\'m sure it would be always the same people reported in this list.

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Marian Greenfield  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:47
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
A list isn't necessary... Jul 2, 2002

Just as people who consistently respond badly to questions show their ignorance, so do people who make inane, useless, or worse, wrong-headed comments on others\' responses... They\'re really only harming themselves, so why worry about? It\'s amazing that people don\'t think about this being a public forum, frequented by potential clients (including colleagues), and that this, like any electronic forum, is their face to the translation community...



msg



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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 20:47
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
'Disagree' requires a counterproposal Jul 2, 2002

In my book the above rule is evident.

As you say, a (condescending) negative comment without giving an alternative suggestion does not help the asker much.



To be added: The behaviour is downright inpolite and unfriendly.



My special hateword from these \'peers\' is

\"Sorry\", expressing negativism AND a condescending attitude (often displayed by smart alecks stressing the importance of being a \'native speaker\').



Mats

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-02 21:58 ]


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 20:47
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
"Sorry " may be true! Jul 2, 2002

Dear Mats, I agree with you as I often do, but do not condemn all who say sorry. If I do disagree (I prefer to use the \"neutral\" choice) I really mean that I am sorry. Because the answer seems totally wrong to me.



And yes, if you disagree, you should offer an alternative. In the past, I answered to those smart people \"Where is your solution?\"

Silence followed...



I forgot to greet you: Greetings!

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-02 22:55 ]


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Trudy Peters  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:47
German to English
+ ...
I disagree with Gilles (Sorry!) :-) Jul 2, 2002

Why can\'t I disagree, if an answer is blatantly wrong? I may not have a better solution, but I know that the answer is wrong. Of course I would explain why I think it\'s wrong in the given context.

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GILOU  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:47
Member (2002)
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
I disagree with Gilles Jul 3, 2002

Ok Trudy, I just underline peers who constantly \'disagree\' but strangely enough, never give answers to help the asker. You give excellent answers and your peergrading is fair...:=)

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Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 20:47
Member (2002)
English to German
Doubts without an alternative are OK Jul 3, 2002

...as long as you provide a clear and polite explanation of why you don\'t agree with the answer.



In my view, it is very often the explanations that separate the wheat from the chaff, both in the answers and the comments. Not all contributions require explanation, of course, but many do, and even if someone provides the best answer conceivable, without explanations and/or references I won\'t be particularly impressed.



Negative (neutral/disagree) comments ALWAYS require a good explanation, either by way of an alternative or by pointing out why the answer is wrong.



Thinking about it, I\'d be really curious to see my own ratio of agrees/disagrees/neutrals, it would be nice if it were displayed on my Brownies page. But I think ProZ staff have more important things on their hands right now .


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 20:47
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
You forget the asker Jul 3, 2002

You said:

\"Negative (neutral/disagree) comments ALWAYS require a good explanation, either by way of an alternative or by pointing out why the answer is wrong.\"



OK but for the benefit of the asker one ought to provide an alternative.

Also: If on is so sure that something is wrong one should also be able to say what is right.



You also said:

\"Thinking about it, I\'d be really curious to see my own ratio of agrees/disagrees/neutrals, it would be nice if it were displayed on my Brownies page. But I think ProZ staff have more important things on their hands right now.\"



In fact ProZ.com staff is working on it. It has been discussed on the mods list.



Mats

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-03 08:47 ]


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IsaPro  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:47
English to French
+ ...
What really matters... Jul 3, 2002

I think that what really matters is that the asker could get an appropriate answer to his/her question. Indeed, we must not forget that sometimes, from a question asked, the comprehension of the remaining of the text may be altered. We must not forget that the asker is WORKING and asks for help in order to carry out his/her job perfectly and get the approval of his/her client.

So, do we have to quarrel so hard about the agree/disagree topic ? I think one should explain why he/she agrees/disagrees with the answers given in order to help the asker and give him/her the best opportunity to do a real good job.

That\'s the way I think when I answer or ask a question on ProZ.



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swisstell
Italy
Local time: 20:47
German to English
+ ...
you're so right - and I could tick off a notorious half dozen without blinking an eye Jul 3, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-07-02 20:02, GILOU wrote:

I have noticed some peers who just disagrees for pleasure, in that, they don\'t give an answer to help the asker but they play the severe judges and are useless because they bring no element to the asker. As there is a list of bad payers, there should be a list of bad raters. I\'m sure it would be always the same people reported in this list.



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Marie Serra / Wort-Lyon
France
Local time: 20:47
German to French
Agree/disagree or give a response Jul 3, 2002

If I always knew the right answer, I would just give it and not give agree/disagree comments.

To help the asker, even if I have no answer, I may disagree to orientate his choice and avoid him to choose a wrong translation.Even without explanation (but I try hard to give one!).

I thank all the translators who disagree when I have myself to choose an answer. The rest is a matter of politeness.


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Jean-Luc Dumont  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:47
English to French
+ ...
Agree/Neutral/Disagree are all necessary Jul 4, 2002

Quote:


To help the asker, even if I have no answer, I may disagree to orientate his choice and avoid him to choose a wrong translation.Even without explanation (but I try hard to give one!).

I thank all the translators who disagree when I have myself to choose an answer. The rest is a matter of politeness.





I could not agree more with you, Marie. A neutral or a disagree is not directed at the \"answerer\", it is aimed at guiding/advising the asker on why this or that answer may not be the best one nor the most appropriate, \"making allowance\" for the lack of time and context available to the person giving the grade. Of course, there maybe some subjectivity involved (whatever the reason maybe - the healthier the better regarding the style or choice of words.



It is very important for the \"answer provider\" to be ready - was going to say to \"face rejection\", but I will say to accept the \"harsh reality\" that his/her answer may not be the best or is not even right or just plain wrong... (and swallow his/her pride and put aside his/her cumbersome ego). Nobody is perfect . We all learn from our mistakes, and I would add everybody learns from someone else\'s mistake. That is why for the sake of guiding and informing the asker it is important for everybody to leave his/her answers that have received \"disagree or neutral\" grades but that were valid answers so that they can be used as reference points that will help the asker to make his way through the difficult process of choosing what works best in the context in question. Removing an answer when it has received a couple of neutral or diagree with explanations is not fair to the asker. It is not fair either to the peer commenting and to the other members for it eliminates some evidence that may strengthen the case for the following answers.



The more people disagree or give neutral grades with a decent explanation the better to help the asker make up his mind or see something he had not understood or learn something new that he may or may not use later on. I also think that if one can disagree not only should he have a good explanation/reason for why but also it would be only fair if he/she provided a \"better\" answer than the one he/she just commented on.



But I would also say that people should also think twice before giving an \"agree\". It is not always possible to justify or explain why we agree nor do we always have the time, but it is as important to think twice before agreeing and is it before diagreeing.



The first answer is not always the best. And if one has agreed to a first answer, there is nothing wrong in checking the question later on to check and grade other answers - some maybe better.



It feels good to give a good answer and it is even nicer to see that other people like it or better that it is selected by the asker. But the best part of the game should be the \"exercise\", the process involved in looking for words/explanations/solutions that fit best the questions and help a peer. It is not to be the fastest at using an electronic dictionary or quoting \"Google the Bible\".







The \"but du jeu\" is not to make fun of others, point fingers at some or hide behind a computer to vent daily frustrations or exteriorize ill-adjusted repressed personalities (as one person brilliantly put it above - the \"bad people\" do it to themselves since it is \"so\" public and that the majority of us who still work for the \"good\".... can see it).



Jean-Luc



PS: As for the disagree-able comment -[ not to point fingers at anyone ]that prompted Gilles (and I can only agree since I was the target a few times) to make the initial comment on this forum, I do not know what the problem is with this \"disagreer\". Some people always seem to enjoy making negative comments that do not even help the asker. I do not know what is the best solution to deal with such nasty-mindedness. I would tend to react immediately with some harsh words to direct the attention on the \"evil one\", hoping that the bright light of a public forum would push him away in a dark recess. That seemed to have worked for a few days , and just as you may expect some improvement from a mental patient after shock therapy, there have been some signs of improved sociability that unfortunately always ended up ruined by some surprisingly unpleasant relapses.



Not sure it is best to ignore the bad apple in the basket. Altough I agree with one peer who said that the Proz community is not blind...and that people making nasty comments hurt themselves in the end. Still that give them ample time/opportunity to do some damage and intimidate others from \"risking\" an answer even if good.



I have been too long. Sorry. when I think I had told myself I should not comment on this topic .





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Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:47
French to English
Disagreeing Jul 5, 2002

Il est évident qu\'un \"disagree\" doit être justifié. A priori, un \"disagree\" doit être motivé par une envie de signaler l\'erreur que ferait le demandeur s\'il choisissait la réponse en quesiton - et de lui expliquer pourquoi. En fin de compte, le but est d\'aider le demandeur. S\'il a au bout des doigts le maximum d\'infos lui permettant d\'éviter des erreurs et, mieux encore, de trouver le/les mot(s) juste, tant mieux.



Evidemment, de temps en temps, à part les erreurs (on clique trop vite, on voulait mettre \"neutral\", voire \"agree\"), on voit des commentaires tout à fait inappropriés. Le manque de maîtrise de soi, cette inelégance et manque de courtoisie que manifestent certains dans leurs réponses et leurs \"peer grades\" est potentiellement néfaste et n\'aide en rien ceux qui ne cherchent qu\'un petit coup de main. D\'ailleurs, on en voit avec des \"agree\" aussi.



Très souvent, il suffit de ne pas réagir du tout. Les plus \"réacs\" s\'en vont en général, ou ils comprennent qu\'il faut calmer le jeu. Bon, il y a toujours une petite minorité qui persiste .... Quand cela va trop loin, il faut envoyer un petit mail au moderateur qui s\'en occupera.



Bonne journée à tous,



Nikki

Moderator French>English


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burton  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 20:47
French to English
+ ...
And don't forget the confidence indicators Jul 7, 2002

I agree with Jean-Luc that agree, disagree and neutral are all necessary. But what about confidence indicators? How come 99 percent of people seem to be \"nearly sure\" of their answer?

False modesty is as damaging as an over-inflated ego, when it comes to helping someone in need.

And sometimes, a fluke, ungrounded intuition may prove to be the best answer.

I also tend to agree with Mats about the \"sorry\": it is at best unnecessary (you\'re trying to help someone), and in the worst case, an example of passive aggression/condescension.

Philippa Burton


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Geneviève von Levetzow  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:47
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Pourquoi l'anglais? Jul 7, 2002

Je dois dire que je suis très étonnée de voir que vous écrivez tous en anglais dans ce forum français.



Bonne fin de semaine



Geneviève


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