Discouraging advice from a translation agency owner - should I heed it?
dianaochoa Switzerland Local time: 06:23 English to Spanish + ...
Again, not to miss the point...
Nov 26, 2009
PCovs wrote:
dianaochoa wrote:
I do translate only to Spanish.
Your profile says you translate into English also.
I am not at all offended.
Glad to hear that. Written language has no tone of voice and no facial expressions, so postings like yours may be misinterpreted. You failed to notice the language direction in the original posting, which - I believe - then led to this whole misunderstanding.
Not only South Americans work for pennies. There are also the agencies that pay less.
I have no idea who works for less or for more. This was not my comment.
We South Americans are not a race. Have you been there?
I never meant to imply anything of the sort. In Denmark the word racism is currently being used as a very broad term not relating to specific races in many cases.
And translating is about recognizing, understanding an accepting the difference!!!!
I agree entirely - understanding and getting the context is imperative!!! ;o)
Thanks for pointing at a fault in my profile.
I just answered to pretty harsh words about South Americans (who were not really the point in the original comment). And I did it only once. Sorry to hear that you keep on the subject. And yes, we should mind our words, especially when they are written. By the way, it was you, not me, who mentioned the "R" word.
Danes are among my favorite people, for many reasons. I hope to meet you again under more agreable circumstances.
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Michele Johnson Germany Local time: 06:23 German to English + ...
Some valid points
Nov 26, 2009
I hate to play devil's advocate, and I certainly don't agree with everything he says, but I do think he makes some valid points.
- Bilingualism: There are some academic debates going on about whether one should be truly bilingual or not, but I take his statement to mean "be sufficiently fluent in your acquired language". This is my completely subjective opinion, but I can't tell you how many American translators I know whose German is just awful, I mean to the point that they can't converse and often don't understand the source text. Especially those still living in the US. Without knowing you and without speaking Spanish, he wouldn't be able to assess this, but just take it as a cautionary tale.
-Immersion: I do think it's important and that it takes more than a year or two abroad as a teenager. Moving to Mexico will be a great opportunity for you.
- Age/experience: Being 26 isn't a problem in itself, but life and job experience most likely are at that age. Do you have a degree in anything, besides the NYU certificate? Not that the degree itself is essential, but it's nice if you can say "I'm a translator AND an engineer". What kind of jobs have you held? Do you know how to run your own business?
- Market: I imagine that Spanish-English *is* a tough market. What can you offer to distinguish yourself from the crowd?
- Feedback on translations: What kind of feedback have you had on your translations? That's one of the advantages of a junior in-house position. Are you ready for the attention to detail that non-volunteer work will require? I had been translating for quite a few years and thought I was pretty good, and then I took a Diploma in Translation prep course from City U in London. It was a real eye-opener to get that kind of detailed feedback - I mean, they picked apart almost every sentence. A great experience that really changed how I work. It's worth it just for the class, even if you're not interested in the IOL exam.
I don't think you have to give up this career path, but I wouldn't give up your day job just yet. I'd also look into the legalities of working in Mexico - there was a thread on this just recently.
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Carole Paquis United Kingdom Local time: 05:23 Member (2007) English to French
Just ignore him
Nov 26, 2009
Fancy that ! Young, and a woman, wanting to get on his patch !!!!!! Next thing you know, people like you will be earning money out of translation instead of looking after your numerous children and cooking endless meals, while he pontificates about the terrible state of the translation industry...
Just ignore that dinosaur...but
Every time you meet him, don't forget to remind him how busy you are with translation. And, when he asks you for this all important and urgent document to translate, tell him you are very sorry, but you are fully booked for the next 5 weeks....
Twenty years ago, when I first started to think about translation, a well established translator told me that I didn't stand a chance because I wasn't bilingual. Beside, according to that person, translation was only a 'married woman's job'... Bilingual married women of all countries, unite!
Well, not only am I not bilingual, but I am not married either and I do make a living out of it...
Translating is just like any other career choice... Since when are other careers so easy ?
Having tried sales, import, export, management and teaching, I find translation quite reasonnable.
Yes, it's hard,
yes, it's competitive,
yes it can be unrewarding,
yes, one can easily get exploited
and yes, some categories of people might have an advantage on you
...just like in any other jobs.
Carole
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If you spent a year working as a PM, shout it off the rooftops. Personally, I positively LOVE working with translators who know the PM-side of the business as well, provided that they deliver good translations of course.
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 23:23 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Don't marry any business
Nov 26, 2009
Let's see what I can type on this pda before my partner is ready for the second part of the trip.
Lately people refer to warnings as "negative". A label on a HCL container that says "will cause death" could be remarked by someome as "...what a negative statetemt...".
This person told you is the truth, but it's not discouraging. As a matter of fact it's encouraging.
You know where the money is? In difficult industries.
There's no money in easy jobs (unless you work for the government).
The worst thing in this job is that you'll become a hermit. There's no way to have a social life and satisfy all demands in the hundreds of emails every day. Not in the beginning. It'll happen a couple of years later. The better you are, the more you'll work alone. Nobody will want to live with a person who works all the time.
The second worst thing is that your income will be dictated by the income and the ambitions of all the other translators in your language pair. Even if you become the "best", it'll be hard to prove it and even harder to justify much higher rates. You may be able to offer a Lamborgini, but the client will say "I do not want a Lamborgini, I can't afford it, I want a used KIA, and I'm willing to pay only for a used KIA".
PMs have already started treating us like home workers: "please do this and please do that" and any point in time, for a minor fee or for free, and the earnings from that big nice job you did yesterday are evaporating while trying to be nice to PMs who think that we live inside our computers.
Try it, and if you don't like it, quit and do something else. I'd say "never enter a job as if it's the only one you'll ever have". You know who says the opposite? Corporate managers who want to see every employee "100% committed and focused and faithful and grateful". It's a lie. As a matter of fact, most "Corporate inspirational talk and posters" I've seen are designed to make you work harder without asking much - they are designed by the boss. "Work as if you own the business" they say to their employees. But they don't own anything and then they' re thrown on the street while the real owner reaps the benefits. It's a nasty lie. Motivation for slaves, for young and inexperienced people who will sacrifice their best years because a motivational poster said so. They sell them for $1.99 a piece and that's pretty much what they' re worth.
In your case, think about what you want, as a human being. Try the industry, and if you don't like it, then quit. No problem.
General advice? Never treat your business as a "spouse". Treat it as a partner. Don't marry it. You can live with it, but don't marry it, especially when the "spouse" sends emails 24/7 assuming you don't even need to go to the bathroom... many people have compromised their health (or even died as a result of), because they married this extremely demanding and genuinely unfaithful spouse.
Put your life and health first. Your family and friends second. The business (whatever business - there are thousands) third. Let the suckers socialize with laptops in depressing coffee shops talking to facebook and such and paying 29.99 a month for an imaginary social life.
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I asked him what his language pair was, and how he got started, and then he told me that he doesn't even translate himself, much less know another language - he simply runs the agency.
So, he runs a translation agency, but:
a) has never, ever, done a single translation, because
b) he doesn't even know any foreign languages
I have to ask:
How on earth did he establish himself as an agency if he can't even check the translation quality in one.single.language pair?! No wonder he has HAD to "lower his prices considerably".
Why is it that you even listened to him, again?
Greetings!
PS: I do think that some of the things he said are worth thinking about, BUT if he has no clue as to how to translate, and does not even speak one single foreign language, I can't help but think that everything he said is based on assumptions and/or prejudice.
For example:
- Only working with translators who have 20+ years experience. Whenever I had to choose a doctor (MD) without having references, I used to pick professionals with xx years' experience because I assumed that they would be better/better prepared. Turns out, I made some bad choices because some of them where not updated on the latest research/discoveries and/or stubbornly stuck to treatments they'd been using for the past 10 years, even though there were new drugs that had proved to be more effective. (point being: "Older" doesn't automatically mean "better").
- The need to be completely bilingual to be a good translator. Sorry, but if he speaks only English, how would he even know that? He probably heard it somewhere and thought "hmm, that sounds nice; I'll add it to my list of requirements to appear more selective and pretend I know what I'm talking about".
Etc, etc.
[Edited at 2009-11-26 19:35 GMT]
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 23:23 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Well...
Nov 26, 2009
"How on earth did he establish himself as an agency if he can't even check the translation quality in one.single.language pair?"
Most agency owners (and PMs), especially here in the U.S., do not speak a second language. They' re just business people and they' re selling a product/service.
My first and only "boss" when I was 19 yrs old was the owner of a computer company and he had a hard time using a computer (thank God for us, the sales people). That didn't prevent him from becoming the No.1 company in the region...
You do not need to be a TV specialist to open up a new Walmart in the area...
The most important point is that... well, maybe I'll write a book about a translator who completely pushed aside a million dollar business, a great relationship and his family and health, because he had to finish a few "urgent, minimum charge" translation jobs...
I have found over the years that the opportunity cost of this business is tremendous.
Opportunity cost is everything else that you' re not doing while you' re trapped with a job "please implement the client's changes in track changes mode, spend an hour and I'll give you thirty bucks to buy a bag of rice after taxes".
My point being... "Don't fall into the trap by putting your business to a higher point than your own self". Unless of course the givernment and the corporations made you think that this is pretty much all you deserve...
[Edited at 2009-11-26 19:41 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson France Local time: 06:23 Member (2007) French to English + ...
Go with your gut feeling
Nov 26, 2009
Monica Davis wrote:
Now, I know there a lot of negative people in this world, and I am not sure if I should pay attention to what he says, or disregard it.
I think maybe you already had him summed up. Of course, it was a blow to your self-confidence but you're right: some people are just downright negative.
In the end, after taking his advice with a mountain of salt, and ours with a pinch (after all, we're freelance translators and he's not!), you've got to gather up your courage and MAKE it work, or turn your back on it.
Success won't happen if you go for it in a half-hearted way, but from what I've understood from your post you're determined and capable, so you have as good a chance of making it work as anyone.
Good luck either way.
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 06:23 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
The frog tale / fable - draw the lesson
Nov 26, 2009
A group of frogs were traveling through the woods and two of them fell into a deep pit.
All the other frogs gathered around the pit. When they saw how deep the pit was, they told the two frogs that they were as good as dead. The two frogs ignored the comments and tried to jump up out of the pit with all of their might. The other frogs kept telling them to stop, that they were as good as dead. Finally, one of the frogs took heed to what the other frogs were saying and gave up. He fell down and died.
The other frog continued to jump as hard as he could. Once again, the crowd of frogs yelled at him to stop the pain and just die. He jumped even harder and finally made it out.
When he got out, the other frogs said, "Did you not hear us?"
The frog explained to them that he was deaf. He thought they were encouraging him the entire time.
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KSL Berlin Germany Local time: 06:23 German to English
It doesn't have to be a life commitment
Nov 26, 2009
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Try the industry, and if you don't like it, then quit. No problem.
General advice? Never treat your business as a "spouse". Treat it as a partner. Don't marry it. You can live with it, but don't marry it, especially when the "spouse" sends emails 24/7 assuming you don't even need to go to the bathroom... many people have compromised their health (or even died as a result of), because they married this extremely demanding and genuinely unfaithful spouse.
Good points along with the rest of your commentary here, Eleftherios. I would be curious to hear the tale of those urgent minimum charge jobs some time.
Some rather interesting translators I've met here and elsewhere have dropped in and out of the profession, taking breaks to do other things at times. No reason why the OP can't do the same. Michele's comment (or was it someone else?) about getting a "real" job first for a while isn't the worst advice and is pretty much what I told my daughter some years ago. Since both her parents and step-parents are translators and she's had game translation credits since before she was ten years old she once expressed an interest in translation as a profession. I pointed out that we all have degrees in science, engineering, diplomacy, psychology and a few other things and have worked in a bunch of different jobs, and this is what gives us the edge as commercial translators. I told her to play around in some other profession for a decade, then give it a shot if she still wants to. I'm one of those curmudgeons who believe that translator's do their best work after 40. (I have to believe that since I was about 40 when I started doing it full time ) No reason, of course, why the OP, my daughter or anyone else can't do just fine at 25 or so if they have the skills and are willing to learn from lots of mistakes.
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Sangro Israel Local time: 07:23 Member (2009) French to English + ...
Don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Nov 27, 2009
And don't bet on translation as your main source of income. In the real world, the chances that you'll make it in translation on a full time basis without a degree are very slim. As that agency owner tactlessly put it, the market in your language pair is saturated.
As others mentioned earlier, you need a degree - in any subject you like - not only to get an edge on the competition when bidding for jobs (which is rather crucial), but also in order to produce high-level translation work and compete at a higher level.
Also, you don't have the luxury of waiting 20 years at the bottom to get experience. Machine translation is round the corner... and it's people with something to offer that will survive.
I would not plunge into deep sea and then try to figure out how to swim or whether I can survive.
Instead, you should take courses toward a degree and in parallel, start translating. I wouldn't count on making any significant income for the next few months.
Or as Kevin suggested, take a real job, and do translation part time. See how it goes. Then you will be wiser.
My two cents.
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"he told me that he doesn't even translate himself, much less know another language - he simply runs the agency."
Several people have given you good advice, so I have nothing to add. I would never judge a person I didn't know without ever having seen their work. But the market is tough and getting tougher and maybe he was playing devil's advocate to make you think long and hard before opting for translation as a profession.
Remember most of the people who run this site are not translators either - translation IS a business!
[Edited at 2009-11-27 21:42 GMT]
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Monica Davis United States Local time: 00:23 Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks-
Nov 27, 2009
Thank you all for the tremendous feedback. It helps reassure me. I agree that it won't be an easy path and definitey don't expect to make a living right away (which is why I have almost a year's worth of living expenses saved up and am planning to try to get started small on the side of my current job or focus on doing it full time with a part time job to supplement my income).
I have a B.S. degree in Int'l Business Administration....I would like to do Master's course work or at least take other classes to get some more exposure to specialized areas. I understand the importance of that.
I am glad to hear that the general consensus is that growing up bi-lingual is not a must-have qualification.
I would like to be able to find an actual mentor to guide me in some of the ins and outs as I start out, and wonder how common it is to hire or work with an editor on my first paid translation jobs to make sure they are executed as perfectly as possible. I will look through the ATA. Working for an in house agency, I agree, would be great experience but where I am and where I plan to move to I don't think there are too many agencies with positions like that open.
Overall, I thank you for all the positive feedback along with a lot to think about I generally don't heed negative people (constructive criticism is always appreciated though), but sometimes you just need to hear other people who lived it tell you it IS possible!
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Alexandra Goldburt United States Local time: 21:23 English to Russian + ...
Consider interpreting
Nov 29, 2009
My very biased advice (because I love interpreting so much): consider interpreting. Not necessary instead of translating, but maybe in addition to it.
Some reasons:
1. If you are certified, it pays better (unless you can translate really, really fast - something I could never master. But remember, I told you from the start that my advice if biased). Getting certified takes some work, but it's doable.
2. It's very hard to outsource interpreting. You will not have to worry about competitors in South America or anywhere else in the world.
3. You don't have an isolation problem. You go out into the world and have a rich, varied experience. You might even travel and get paid for it!
4. Once the job is done, it's done. You don't spend your every waking minute thinking about it (something I do when I am working on a translation).
5. In the United States, the demand for Spanish interpreters is so big, that you can be assured job security for the rest of you life (unless there is a major political change... let's hope not). Even better: you can take a month, a year, or a couple of year off, travel and see the word - and when you come back, your "job" will be there.
7. And you can combine interpreting with translating if you so wish.
I think I've given you enough reasons to at least consider it. Don't accuse me of being biased - I've warned you from the start that I am...
As to the guy in question, let me tell you this: avoid people like him like a plague, as they are a vexation to the spirit.
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Rob Albon United States Local time: 00:23 Japanese to English + ...
Editing and Project Management
Nov 30, 2009
Well, your would-be mentor's opinions about bilingualism are quite normal for someone who does not know a second language. It is also possible that his current employees (who appear to be older bilinguals) have convinced him that older bilinguals are the only way to go so that he will not fire them and hire new blood at lower rates.
In which case, this person may have some business skills and also LISTENS to his employees. Or maybe he inherited the business and actually doesn't have a clue. But don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
THere are many business owners who don't know the ins and outs of the services that they provide (i.e. just about any franchise) but do know business and finance. They don't need to know how to wait tables, cook or wash dishes in order to run a restauant. It is a different set of job skills. So if he is weak on the language side he must be strong on the business side to compensate.
So this guy actually sounds quite interesting, you may want to try talking to him again to learn more about THAT side of the business. Heck, tell him that since you are not bilingual you have given up your dream of being a translator and now want to be the owner of a translation company.
I also took a few classes at NYU and a few other schools and no one teaches you the business side of things.
Anyway, some other considerations, you might want to try editing and project management at first, these are jobs where you could learn a lot about the industry and still get paid. Government is also good, look at www.usajobs.gov in the U.S. for opportunities.
[Edited at 2009-11-30 23:17 GMT]
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The translation workplace 
) No reason, of course, why the OP, my daughter or anyone else can't do just fine at 25 or so if they have the skills and are willing to learn from lots of mistakes.
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