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Ethics - kudoz questions from a test translation
Thread poster: Michael Sebold
Michael Sebold
Canada
Local time: 08:05
German to English
+ ...
Jul 10, 2002

I\'m still in the process of \"getting established\" myself, but today I awoke to a situation that just doesn\'t sit right with me. I received several Kudoz emails for terms that I recognized from a test translation used by an agency in its application process. It was the same test translation I had done several months ago, and while it did occur to me that I could get help with this test when I did it, it didn\'t seem like the right thing to do, so I just completed it on my own. Now I see that, not only somebody else much less concerned with honesty and integrity, but other Kudoz participants are more than happy to provide possible translations (not terribly good ones, but nevertheless . . .). It seems to me that this goes against the spirit of the Proz site, and I would be very interested in what others have to say on the subject.



Regards,

Michael Sebold



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BelkisDV  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
Old news Jul 10, 2002

I\'m sorry to tell you that this has been discussed before, and while I agree with you, there are others who don\'t due to the fact that when you are working on an actual translation and get stuck on a term it is perfectly acceptable to ask for help from your colleagues. Therefore a lot of people do not see anything wrong with asking questions to complete their tests.



Many have suggested for the asker to indicate that their question is to be used for that purpose, however, this has not been implemented yet.



Regards,

Belkis


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Judy Rojas  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 09:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
Touchy situation Jul 10, 2002

It is a recurring problem. If it is just a matter of a word or two, I let it pass, but if it is, as you say, whole sentences, then I think that a polite, private communication with the individual is justified.





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Michael Sebold
Canada
Local time: 08:05
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I see Jul 10, 2002

Well, I guess I\'ll just have to be satisfied with the knowledge that the suggestions she got are unlikely to help her land the job.



Thanks,

Michael


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Bob Kerns  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:05
Member (2002)
German to English
Not unethical Jul 10, 2002

Yes, this has been discussed before and I am still of the opinion that even with test translations one should make use of all the resources at one\'s disposal, including ProZ.

If you were taking your driving test would you consider it unethical to ask friends who have already passed it for tips on how to pass first time?


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:05
English to German
+ ...
No problem for the asker - but for the outsourcer Jul 10, 2002

I don\'t see a problem using any resources available (including ProZ) during a test - the problem is with the outsourcer: how will you find out in a test translation if the person submitting it translated the text in the first place?



Which is why I don\'t believe in test translations when outsourcing myself...


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Michael Sebold
Canada
Local time: 08:05
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
disagree Jul 10, 2002

Hi Robert,



It\'s an interesting point, but I believe your logic is flawed. Asking friends for tips before a driving test would be akin to learning the language and its idioms prior to taking the test. Asking Proz peers for help with a test translation would be like having a friend in the back seat to give you tips while you’re taking the driving test – to which the driving examiner would surely object.



Regards,

Michael



Quote:


On 2002-07-10 16:19, RKKerns wrote:

Yes, this has been discussed before and I am still of the opinion that even with test translations one should make use of all the resources at one\'s disposal, including ProZ.

If you were taking your driving test would you consider it unethical to ask friends who have already passed it for tips on how to pass first time?



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Vidmantas Stilius  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:05
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
Too much ado about nothing Jul 10, 2002

My personal impression is that there\'s too much fuss about all sorts of test; I think thet are just a formality, and our tests go straight into the dustbin. I can recall of only ONE case when an agency returned my test with their corrections and remarks.

Who is the authority that assesses your proficiency? Have you ever heard of his/her opinion of your work? Have YOU been assigned a job because your test was the best? Or does the lowest rate has the final say?

I believe the lowest rate is selected to do the job, and the best \"test rabbit\" to do the proofing at the proof rate.

Some \"tests\" are just funny (two or three lines without any context); some are just formidable: 10 pages, two days, and then you find out (thanks God there\'s proz and Kudoz where you can see that your problem terms are someone else\'s problem terms, too) that 50-odd people are sweating over the same 10-page test this weekend, and finally give it up and go out and enjoy yoursel, because no agency can assign a 100-page work to 50 translators, can it?



My experience is that the best way to prove your qualification is to quote a decently high rate, or to reject a job that doesn\'t satisfy your needs.



After all, WE are the final profit-earners for the agencies, and not vice versa.



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BelkisDV  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
To Vidmantas Jul 10, 2002

I quote: Have YOU been assigned a job because your test was the best? Or does the lowest rate has the final say?

I believe the lowest rate is selected to do the job, and the best \"test rabbit\" to do the proofing at the proof rate.\"



YES, I have been selected to do a job because of the proficiency demonstrated in the test I took. NO, I did not accept the job because the pay was ridiculous. See? it works both ways.



Cheers!

Belkis


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Dr. Fred Thomson  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:05
German to English
Use of sources Jul 11, 2002

Would you decline to use this or that dictionary because you believed that the test giver expects you to work purely out of your head? Only when the test giver has expresslly asked you to limit yourself to specific resources should you be concerned. Would one not ask his/her spouse for help on a particular word or construction if that is one\'s wont?

I use KudoZ all the time when I am doing a tough translation, and I feel no ethical need to advise my client that I had \"outside\" help.

Now, if another person does the translation for you, that is a different story.


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Alexander Chisholm  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:05
Italian to English
+ ...
Real life situation Jul 11, 2002

I have a little bit of experience with using tests for translations and for IT outsourcing.



If you really want to test someones knowledge, the only way to do it is under exam conditions (in person, closed book, no conferring etc.).



One can always look on a test translation as being not just a test, but also an insight into how this person will work with you in the future. If the person receives the test, and sends you a clear, precise reply within a short turnaround time, this is an indication of how this person might work with you in the future, regardless of the resources they have at their disposal. Obviously, in a working situation, you don\'t care how the translator gets their work done, but you do care about their precision and speed etc.



Sandy


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Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:05
Member (2002)
English to German
See other threads as well Jul 11, 2002

This topic keeps coming up every once in a while, see e.g. the following threads:



www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=30967&topic=3452&forum=23&14

www.proz.com/index.php3?sp=bb/viewtopic&topic=2646&forum=24&start=0 (in Spanish).





As I said in the first thread mentioned, I would like askers to say upfront if their question relates to a test; everybody could then decide whether or not to contribute. I do not think this is too much to ask for.


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CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 08:05
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
Askers should say it comes from a test as part of the context Jul 11, 2002

We have discussed this also in language-specific forums. In EN>IT there seems to be a consensus about above.



paola l m



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