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Why I don\'t translate out of my native language...
Thread poster: Emma Cox
Claudia Iglesias
Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 10:37
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
Mary, I didnt say that either Oct 10, 2002

I didn\'t want my answer to be agressive, I apologyze if it seemed so.

I didn\'t say that anyone in this thread had said what is in quotes, but lots of people do think so. And lots give as reference in KudoZ \"native speaker\". That\'s not enough for me.



Quote:


I dislike this innate superiority that consists to think that any native (and we are all natives of at least one language) is able to do it better than... See more
I didn\'t want my answer to be agressive, I apologyze if it seemed so.

I didn\'t say that anyone in this thread had said what is in quotes, but lots of people do think so. And lots give as reference in KudoZ \"native speaker\". That\'s not enough for me.



Quote:


I dislike this innate superiority that consists to think that any native (and we are all natives of at least one language) is able to do it better than a non-native. There are lots of natives with weak knowledge of linguistic rules who won\'t make the same mistakes than a non-native, but will do.





And about the other point that is being discussed here, nobody can say he doesn\'t make mistakes, but that\'s not the point here.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-11 01:58 ]Collapse


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:37
Member (2004)
English to Italian
László ... Oct 10, 2002

mine was only a joke... anybody can make a mistake (even Mary!!!!!) while typing (or whatever). It\'s a ProZ forum, not Oxford University.







G





 
mckinnc
mckinnc  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:37
French to English
+ ...
Laszlo, you've got to be joking! Oct 10, 2002

Don\'t we get a chance to relax a bit when typing this stuff out? The rest of the time (when submitting translations to clients) we have to painstakingly check everything for speling and other mistakes. Give us a break mate!

 
mckinnc
mckinnc  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:37
French to English
+ ...
Laszlo, you've got to be joking! Oct 10, 2002

Don\'t we get a chance to relax a bit when typing this stuff out? It\'s aforum for informal discussion. The rest of the time (when submitting translations to clients) we have to painstakingly check everything for spelling and other mistakes. Give us a break mate!

 
Mike Ck
Mike Ck
Spain
Local time: 14:37
English to Spanish
+ ...
I think it can depend... Oct 10, 2002

on the type of source material. I would never attempt to translate a Spanish novel, but I recently have translated several manuales from English to Spanish where the language was very simple - short sentences giving instrucciones, but with very tecnical terminology that a native speaker wouldn`t know unless they work in the field, or is a translator. I have my texts proofread and corrected by a fellow professional translator working on the project.



As I warm to the style an
... See more
on the type of source material. I would never attempt to translate a Spanish novel, but I recently have translated several manuales from English to Spanish where the language was very simple - short sentences giving instrucciones, but with very tecnical terminology that a native speaker wouldn`t know unless they work in the field, or is a translator. I have my texts proofread and corrected by a fellow professional translator working on the project.



As I warm to the style and expression of the (repetitive) text I make fewer and fewer mistakes . I feed the corrections into my translation memory and use that as the base for subsequent translations. The last translation I did required only 5 pages to be corrected out of 60...with very few mistakes. I should say that earlier in the year I/we translated the product brochures and the company we very pleased with the results (they check very thoroughly), and gave us the manual project on the back of this.I can already here the cries of protest, but yes, I originally took the job on because I needed the work, but it always passes through the editing process via another professional (native spanish, and the project has now become an extended professional colaboración. The project is sufficiently well paid to allow this, and of course not all are, but what I`m saying is that if your approach is professional then the results should be acceptable.



In some I think that is part of the essence of the debate and clearly some translators, in which ever direction they`re translating, are not always that professional. Again, we enter into the whole arena of need as well. Given the pay of some jobs one wonders if the client is really that bothered.



It really comes down to professional integrity and being rigourous in your work.
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Mary Worby
Mary Worby  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:37
German to English
+ ...
I admit it! Oct 10, 2002

Quote:




All too often English native speakers excuse themselves to cover up their mistakes in grammar by downplaying them as spelling mistakes, which shouldn\'t be a big deal, right? On the other hand, they make quite a few shameful real spelling mistakes, too. The attitude towards admitting this is shown in the quotes.







I didn\'t spell smileys correctly. Please accept my profuse apo... See more
Quote:




All too often English native speakers excuse themselves to cover up their mistakes in grammar by downplaying them as spelling mistakes, which shouldn\'t be a big deal, right? On the other hand, they make quite a few shameful real spelling mistakes, too. The attitude towards admitting this is shown in the quotes.







I didn\'t spell smileys correctly. Please accept my profuse apologies. It was in no way down to my innate feeling of superiority as an English native speaker. More a case of my implicit fallibility - which is why I would not attempt to translate into languages not my own!



Please don\'t take things too seriously, Lazslo!



Regards



Mary ▲ Collapse


 
bochkor
bochkor
Local time: 09:37
English to German
+ ...
The pompous prat is back in town! Oct 10, 2002

To Colin:



No, I wasn\'t joking and that\'s exactly what I wanted, because I saw that you corrected your mistake in the word \"spelling\" the second time. That\'s all I wanted to point out that you shouldn\'t be careless and use the Edit button after posting your message.



By the way, it\'s not just on ProZ, it\'s in everyday life, too. Too often native speakers mutilate their own language over the phone, in e-mails, on websites, in print and in official l
... See more
To Colin:



No, I wasn\'t joking and that\'s exactly what I wanted, because I saw that you corrected your mistake in the word \"spelling\" the second time. That\'s all I wanted to point out that you shouldn\'t be careless and use the Edit button after posting your message.



By the way, it\'s not just on ProZ, it\'s in everyday life, too. Too often native speakers mutilate their own language over the phone, in e-mails, on websites, in print and in official letters! You want a break? We translators are in the language business, so we are the last ones I would want to give a break to. If really any agencies read the ProZ forums, they must be horrified by the terrible English and spellings.



Now quoting the hate mail I just received from John Kinory:



\"-----------

You have been sent a message via your ProZ.com page.

Author: John Kinory

Author\'s profile: http://www.proz.com/pro/8804

-----------



László,



Has anyone told you recently that you are a pompous prat?



Mary made a simple typing mistake in a window that\'s often difficult to see properly. That does not justify your attack.



John\"



And here\'s my answer to John:



The so-called \"attack\" was originally not even from me and it was merely criticism from Giovanni (native English speakers obviously can\'t take any criticism!), who has been disgracefully put down by you and downplayed by Mary, the native-speaker team with a nonchalant, careless attitude. That\'s all I refuse to worship, so does that make me pompous? I\'m just tired of native speakers\' disrespect for their own language and their excuses, of which unfortunately there is a plethora of examples everywhere. Yet in the end, they\'re so preferred over all others. So regardless of Giovanni now saying he was joking or not, the truth remains the same.



And does my humble criticism justify such a REAL attack by John (whom I have valued more until now) calling me hatefully a \"pompous prat\"? So why not curse even worse? Go ahead, demonstrate your good English! Show what you can do! But watch your spelling and grammar!
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Mike Ck
Mike Ck
Spain
Local time: 14:37
English to Spanish
+ ...
László, I`m afraid... Oct 10, 2002

... your reply to Colin contains some grammar and punctuation mistakes...



But, I`ll (or is that, I will) leave your sense of integrity about hitting the \"Edit\" button down to you...


 
John Kinory (X)
John Kinory (X)
Local time: 13:37
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Uncalled-for attack Oct 10, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-10 15:53, bochkor wrote:

So although by and large I agree with the advantage of the majority of native speakers, I have been very often disappointed by their English, as well. Sometimes it sounds even, as if they were foreigners and this in America! What a shame, so let\'s not downplay or forget about it!




You say you translate into English, right? How many here (I mean tho
... See more
Quote:


On 2002-10-10 15:53, bochkor wrote:

So although by and large I agree with the advantage of the majority of native speakers, I have been very often disappointed by their English, as well. Sometimes it sounds even, as if they were foreigners and this in America! What a shame, so let\'s not downplay or forget about it!




You say you translate into English, right? How many here (I mean those genuinely in a position to judge) think the paragraph quoted above is good, or even idiomatic, or even grammatically correct English?



Motes and beams, Laszlo, motes and beams.



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-11 12:17 ]
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John Kinory (X)
John Kinory (X)
Local time: 13:37
English to Hebrew
+ ...
László's sense of integrity Oct 10, 2002

... or rather, his complete lack of it.



Anyone posting in public a private letter, should not even be allowed to work in the industry. Does László also disclose confidential information placed in his hands by clients?



It would also help if László learned to read. I never \'disgracefully put Giovanni down\' (or for that matter, anything that Giovanni said). I consider Giovanni a valued colleague, and am astonished - yet again - that László seemingly
... See more
... or rather, his complete lack of it.



Anyone posting in public a private letter, should not even be allowed to work in the industry. Does László also disclose confidential information placed in his hands by clients?



It would also help if László learned to read. I never \'disgracefully put Giovanni down\' (or for that matter, anything that Giovanni said). I consider Giovanni a valued colleague, and am astonished - yet again - that László seemingly can read anything he wants into any given sequence of words.



And \'I have been very often disappointed by their English\' is still not English.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-11 12:24 ]
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Magda Dziadosz
Magda Dziadosz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:37
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
Am I wrong thinking... Oct 10, 2002

that those who are unable to translate into their second language never mastered this language? And what about those who translate from 3 or 5 languages only into their native one? How good their language skills can be?



Just wondering.



Magda


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:37
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Mary... Oct 10, 2002

Sorry... gosh... what a mess... I wish I never said anything.



G





 
Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:37
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
wow, what a can of worms!! Oct 10, 2002

Hi again,



I was hoping not to cause conflict or annoyance for raising this subject, and was interested to read the various replies.



I am not criticising those who are multilingual in the sense that they may have for example a French mother, Catalan/Spanish father, and have grown up in England - I know such a family, and these folks really WOULD be qualified to translate into any of these languages.



What I am referring to really is va
... See more
Hi again,



I was hoping not to cause conflict or annoyance for raising this subject, and was interested to read the various replies.



I am not criticising those who are multilingual in the sense that they may have for example a French mother, Catalan/Spanish father, and have grown up in England - I know such a family, and these folks really WOULD be qualified to translate into any of these languages.



What I am referring to really is various members who have possibly just graduated with a language degree or similar who think this qualifies them for translations into another language. It\'s just that I noticed someone the other day who is registered to translate into English who just has a Cambridge First Certificate (ie. pretty basic), whose written English was horrific!! To be honest with you, when I graduated 8 years ago, I thought I was the bees knees to have these language skills and that I could easily translate into Spanish and Portuguese. It was only from working in house at a translation agency that I realised the implications of non native translation.



Really this was my point, and obviously for unusual languages such as Armenian, it is possibly easier to find an Armenian who speaks English than an English person who speaks Armenian...



...know what I mean?
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Sheila Hardie
Sheila Hardie  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:37
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
To err is human - and I am human Oct 10, 2002

László, please calm down. This is getting way out of hand.



I quote from your posting:



\"By the way, it\'s not just on ProZ, it\'s in everyday life, too. Too often native speakers mutilate their own language over the phone, in e-mails, on websites, in print and in official letters! You want a break? We translators are in the language business, so we are the last ones I would want to give a break to. If really any agencies read the ProZ forums, they mus
... See more
László, please calm down. This is getting way out of hand.



I quote from your posting:



\"By the way, it\'s not just on ProZ, it\'s in everyday life, too. Too often native speakers mutilate their own language over the phone, in e-mails, on websites, in print and in official letters! You want a break? We translators are in the language business, so we are the last ones I would want to give a break to. If really any agencies read the ProZ forums, they must be horrified by the terrible English and spellings\".



When I worked in publishing, a colleague once said that the only way to avoid making mistakes was not to publish anything. He was quite right. I remember a translation I did years ago about cormorants. It was a text describing the birds\' anatomy. I inadvertently made a small mistake that resulted in the uropygial gland migrating to the wrong part of the cormorant\'s body This text was checked by no fewer than 3 VERY PERNICKERTY editors (all ornithologists, native English speakers and familiar with this bird\'s anatomy). No-one noticed the mistake. The book was then published and it was not until 3 years later that a critic reviewing the text picked up on the mistake and made a joke about it Thanks to me, there must be hundreds of people out who believe the cormorant has a rather oddly situated uropygial gland)



We all make mistakes in ALL the languages we know, however well. As they say, to err is human. We are not machines. Come to think of it, machines make mistakes too







P.S. Disclaimer: I do not hold myself responsible for any mistakes made in the above text - it\'s the computer\'s fault)

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Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:37
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
whoops, have touched several nerves... Oct 11, 2002

I apologise, I never meant to start a war!!



Translation is not an exact science, and to be honest, my rule is: translate into your mother tongue and only touch subjects you are an expert in. I only touch IT texts or general texts for example. Because I have worked in all my languages in the IT industry over the years, this qualifies me to be able to translate into English.



I think Laszlo is right that there are several native speakers who cannot string a
... See more
I apologise, I never meant to start a war!!



Translation is not an exact science, and to be honest, my rule is: translate into your mother tongue and only touch subjects you are an expert in. I only touch IT texts or general texts for example. Because I have worked in all my languages in the IT industry over the years, this qualifies me to be able to translate into English.



I think Laszlo is right that there are several native speakers who cannot string a grammatical sentence together, but my point was really that a bad translation might endanger lives! (a posting with spelling mistakes on Proz.com fortunately won\'t harm anyone, although of course it seems to raise peoples\' blood pressure somewhat!!!)



As for hate mail, please everyone!! DON\'T do this!! What is it going to achieve? It just upsets people.



I apologise for opening a can of worms - I just wanted to say that a Cambridge First Certificate in English is not enough to become a Portuguese (or any other language) - English translator, just as being bilingual does not mean that you can translate texts on Oncology without expert knowledge in the field...



Good night and sleep tight...



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