| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Launch of TAUS/TDA inminent. The super cloud Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
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| Response to desdelaisla | Dec 12, 2008 |
desdelaisla wrote:
Most of us don't want to take part in something that can end up uploaded in TAUS and, in the long run, probably in a machine translation platform. We don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot.
Hi desdelaisla,
My attention was called to this post, but I have not had a chance to review the thread. I will review the thread and provide a more complete reply when time allows.
For now, to respond generally to the question of what data ProZ.com has contributed or has promised to contribute to TAUS, the answer is nothing. If we do, I'll let you all know.
As to your post, certainly, private files uploaded here would never be anything but private to the owner.
As for KudoZ, bear in mind that it is an entirely open platform, with publicly accessible information. Google, for example, has indexed all or most of the KudoZ archive, and for all we know, the KudoZ archive is already (not "in the long run") among the data used by Google in training their MT.
If that idea bothers you, consider that part of what may be motivating companies to share their TM data is the realization that their own data is in fact already being used, whether they like it or not (by Google, for example, but certainly not only them). So the translations you do for your clients, if published on the web, are likely being used to train some MT, somewhere. (Not to mention the training of other translators... )
Henry
| | | | | response to Henry | Dec 12, 2008 |
Thanks for your message - I am still digesting it (the Google bit was somehow scary, if you ask me; I am NEVER EVER contributing to Kudoz again -no big loss, it's been ages since I last did it anyway).
So Proz.com is not contributing to TAUS with data. That's a reassurance. And the glossary-building questions are not related to it at all, I hope. Great.
But then, what is the role of Proz.com in TAUS, Henry? What will you do exactly?
Thanks in advance for yo... See more Thanks for your message - I am still digesting it (the Google bit was somehow scary, if you ask me; I am NEVER EVER contributing to Kudoz again -no big loss, it's been ages since I last did it anyway).
So Proz.com is not contributing to TAUS with data. That's a reassurance. And the glossary-building questions are not related to it at all, I hope. Great.
But then, what is the role of Proz.com in TAUS, Henry? What will you do exactly?
Thanks in advance for your answer,
M. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks a lot Henry! | Dec 12, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
For now, to respond generally to the question of what data ProZ.com has contributed or has promised to contribute to TAUS, the answer is nothing. If we do, I'll let you all know.
Thanks a lot for the information Henry.
Yes, about Kudoz being indexed by Google, I actually find it a good situation. It allows me to make easy searches in the Kudoz glossaries from Google. So I am happy to do my bit in contributing with answers and agrees/disagrees as I am also getting good things back.
| | | | | Ahhhhh! So that's where the weird terms in Google MT come from! :D | Dec 13, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
...for all we know, the KudoZ archive is already (not "in the long run") among the data used by Google in training their MT.
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Ahhhhh! So that's where the weird terms in Google MT come from!
Easily the funniest thing I've read on here in, oh, well, dunno, ages, anyway.
| | | | | New opportunities for tecnically oriented and specialized translators. | Dec 13, 2008 |
There will be always some documents which must be revised by experienced translators and experts, because of its importance, becauses they are necessary for dangerous proceedings, etc. By the way, what documents do you think could be treated in this category?. Should there be a category of documents, so that these kind of documents should be human-translated and others machine-translated?
But there are other documents which can be translated automatically and not revised. What kind ... See more There will be always some documents which must be revised by experienced translators and experts, because of its importance, becauses they are necessary for dangerous proceedings, etc. By the way, what documents do you think could be treated in this category?. Should there be a category of documents, so that these kind of documents should be human-translated and others machine-translated?
But there are other documents which can be translated automatically and not revised. What kind of documents do you think could be these ones?
For both kinds of documents is a good, adaptable global TM very useful.
As for the copyrights. Tomás, my good friend. Generally speaking I am against. It is just a system widely in power since a couple of centuries and in many cases is even not good for the authors who don´t care about copyrights and others register their ideas and prevent them from using them. You know the story of the founder of the copyleft foundation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft
http://fundacioncopyleft.org/contact
excursus about the translation of copyleft into Spanish.La traducción más extendida de esta palabra es «izquierdo de copia», en la que se mantiene la referencia al contexto ideológico en el que se sitúa el término, aunque al verterlo al español ya no resulte evidente su relación antitética con copyright. Es menos frecuente la traducción «izquierdos de autor», que presenta la ventaja de asociarse con más facilidad a su contrario, «derechos de autor». Sin embargo, frente a ambas soluciones es mucho más habitual mantener en los textos españoles la forma en inglés.
I think it could be improved in order to improve creativity and quick adoption of technology. Honestly, I don´t think that the patent and copyright system contributes to technology development more than could a better system do. It is just a try, but I am convinced, there should be better ways. I respect it, otherways I would be and outlaw, but I think that laws are not always correct, we have a lot of examples in History. As I said I respect these laws but I consider them old-fashioned. We should try new ways, I don´t know exactly which ones, I am probably too old for this, probably new generations will come out with fresh ideas. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Patents and copyright | Dec 13, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Honestly, I don´t think that the patent and copyright system contributes to technology development more than could a better system do.
Ok, then I try to convince people to fork out a huge amount of money to cover researcher salaries, expensive lab equipment and millions of hours of work to produce new inventions. Just try! Nobody will pay a single dime if there is a risk that they will never recover the investment. Just give it a try! Well, you did try already: nobody wanted to fork out 6.000 euros to invest in your idea about a cooperative.
Just imagine what would it be to convince people to invest in a project worth 500 to 2,000 million dollars (the average cost of developing a new drug) or the many millions of dollars required to develop some new piece of computing equipment or software without some guarantee that the results of the research won't be photocopied by someone and exploited without contributing a single cent to the development costs.
So patents ARE in fact contributing to technology development every day. You just are unable to examine the facts and accept them for ideology-related reasons.
| | | | | The answer is simple | Dec 13, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
But there are other documents which can be translated automatically and not revised. What kind of documents do you think could be these ones?
I've seen machine-translated tickets (the only text on tickets is generally the price, the date, the time, the name of the event and where the coat check is), and even that was messed up. I am sure the phrase "coat check" has been translated many times before, yet, the ticket still says "vérification de manteau" in French. Does a ticket even qualify as a document?
You've got your answer...
[Edited at 2008-12-13 18:56 GMT]
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| Thank you Tomás | Dec 13, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Honestly, I don´t think that the patent and copyright system contributes to technology development more than could a better system do. Ok, then I try to convince people to fork out a huge amount of money to cover researcher salaries, expensive lab equipment and millions of hours of work to produce new inventions. Just try! Nobody will pay a single dime if there is a risk that they will never recover the investment. Just give it a try! Well, you did try already: nobody wanted to fork out 6.000 euros to invest in your idea about a cooperative. Just imagine what would it be to convince people to invest in a project worth 500 to 2,000 million dollars ( the average cost of developing a new drug) or the many millions of dollars required to develop some new piece of computing equipment or software without some guarantee that the results of the research won't be photocopied by someone and exploited without contributing a single cent to the development costs. So patents ARE in fact contributing to technology development every day. You just are unable to examine the facts and accept them for ideology-related reasons.
Ok, I see your point. Question. Have you statistics, facts, about what developments were made by "the system", and what ones were made by "other ways". The most important motor for innovation was always the war, not companies investing. The money in the case of war/military was/is given by tax-payers and the motivation was/is survival/win/be prepared for the war, not to make money.
The other important motor for innovation were and still are, individuals and groups mad (I mean very interested) about a topic, not companies or institutions. In many cases it is just the casuality (like in the case of the peniciline).
I don´t understand why you said that "I am unable to examine the facts and accept them for ideology-related reasons", but as I always said, this kind of personal comentars are absolutely irrelevant for me. I am just curious. Why ideology-related reasons?
I see the point in your argument. Try to find the point in mine.
Another argument. You are right when you said that I cannot convince nobody to start a venture with 6.000 Euros and acountancy online, democratic decision-taking and all the other ideas. By the way, I still consider the idea good and I am absolutely sure that there would be people interested. But let this for other occassion.
But you get the Governments of the world convinced to give billions of dollars to the banks. In some cases the companies/banks just took the money away from people. It is incredible what has been done and it is incredible how easy is to fool people. It is amazing. In many cases, like in many translation business and many other business too, I am sure that there was bribery as well. Many banks were fooled by stock exchange companies, but, sure, there were a lot of people profiting of that. And eventually, the tax-payer (you and me) are going to pay this "small acountancy gap" or "calculation error" or "finance crisis", as you like to call it. Not the banks and the big companies. Is that not part of the system?
I think that the internet should be a hugh place for people and companies with new ideas to suceed, no matter if they are Microsoft or an 18 year old living in Greenland.
| | | | | Simply not true | Dec 13, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Ok, I see your point. Question. Have you statistics, facts, about what developments were made by "the system", and what ones were made by "other ways". The most important motor for innovation was always the war, not companies investing.
Honestly, I don't see how the huge development effort to cure cancer and AIDS (which is probably receiving a big chunk of the R&D budget of the whole world) is military development.
Do companies like KODAK, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Toshiba, Mercedes-Benz, BASF, Bayer, ABB, Microsoft, Cisco, or Oracle work mostly for the military? I don't think the military is a big customer for them at all. Yet, they are some examples of companies who create a continuous stream of new solutions for our everyday life. Are NASA or ESA military organisations? Are Universities military organisations? I honestly think you should prove what you are saying. To me you just distrust the corporate world. It appears to me that it could be because you know very little about it.
Let me add some figures:
- Estimated total R&D expenditure in the US, 2007: 347 billion US$
- Estimated R&D budget of the US Department of Defense 2009: 79 billion US$
Surely most of the developments DON'T come from the military at least in the US?
| | | | | Microsoft is a good example of creativity, right from the beginning... | Dec 13, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Ok, I see your point. Question. Have you statistics, facts, about what developments were made by "the system", and what ones were made by "other ways". The most important motor for innovation was always the war, not companies investing. Honestly, I don't see how the huge development effort to cure cancer and AIDS (which is probably receiving a big chunk of the R&D budget of the whole world) is military development. Do companies like KODAK, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Toshiba, Mercedes-Benz, BASF, Bayer, ABB, Microsoft, Cisco, or Oracle work mostly for the military? I don't think the military is a big customer for them at all. Yet, they are some examples of companies who create a continuous stream of new solutions for our everyday life. Are NASA or ESA military organisations? Are Universities military organisations? I honestly think you should prove what you are saying. To me you just distrust the corporate world. It appears to me that it could be because you know very little about it. Let me add some figures: - Estimated total R&D expenditure in the US, 2007: 347 billion US$ - Estimated R&D budget of the US Department of Defense 2009: 79 billion US$ Surely most of the developments DON'T come from the military at least in the US?
Is expenditure in R&D deductable from taxes?
Microsoft started his big business buying MSDos from another boy and selling it to IBM, but not the licence. Bill opposed absolutely to this. And he win a lot of money. But the creativity was somewhere else.....
Maybe translators should do the same, somehow.....
| | | | Gabriel Csaba 
Argentina
Local time: 10:03
English to Spanish
+ ...
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Why do you think letting each person and team do their projects the way they like or wish does not make sense? You are not forced to use their services, are you?
...but he sure seems intent on forcing us to use this thang.
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| "The good old MS-DOS is still the best for you!" | Dec 14, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Is expenditure in R&D deductable from taxes?
Microsoft started his big business buying MSDos from another boy and selling it to IBM, but not the licence. Bill opposed absolutely to this. And he win a lot of money. But the creativity was somewhere else.....
Maybe translators should do the same, somehow.....
R&D is surely deductible in every country. But honestly it is absurd to think that companies invest in R&D just because it is deductible. There is a fierce competition out there (simply because we consumers want better stuff and services at a lower price every time), and companies can only survive if they invest in R&D. Just think: would Microsoft still exist if they now only sold MS-DOS or Windows 3.1? Impossible.
R&D is necessary to survive in every market, and would exist even if it was not deductible.
| | | | | "Creativity was somewhere else" | Dec 14, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Microsoft started his big business buying MSDos from another boy and selling it to IBM, but not the licence. Bill opposed absolutely to this. And he win a lot of money. But the creativity was somewhere else.....
Creativity. Let's talk creativity. Of course, ideas (in their pure state) can be in some individual or small group of individuals who have a fantastic idea. But in order to convert the idea to a viable product or service you have to work a lot and for out a pile of money. In most cases, the person who has the idea is not able to convert it to a successful product or service. Either because he/she lacks to knowledge for the next stages or because money is a problem. That's why companies hire these people or purchase their seminal concept (in most cases a patent) and invest to develop it into something usable. Is anything wrong with that?
In some cases, people with ideas work for the company or have some association with the company and get paid for their ideas. Think of Google. They are patenting dozens of things every month (we had to prove this to you some time ago; you would not believe that a friendly company like Google would be so evil to patent their stuff).
Google has a big team of people whose job is being crazy and imagining stuff. Maybe 0,3% of all those ideas will be a final innovative, attractive, successful service (like Google, Google Maps, Google Earth...). Securing patents is the way Google can protect their investment in those people, ensuring that the ideas they have purchased stay in Google in the long run. And the initial anti-theft protection provided by patents made it possible to create the product you use in your every life, Felipe. No patents, no Google, no Google Maps, no Google Earth, no Google anything.
| | | | | What about corporations expressly opposing creativity? | Dec 14, 2008 |
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Microsoft started his big business buying MSDos from another boy and selling it to IBM, but not the licence. Bill opposed absolutely to this. And he win a lot of money. But the creativity was somewhere else.....
Creativity. Let's talk creativity. Of course, ideas (in their pure state) can be in some individual or small group of individuals who have a fantastic idea. But in order to convert the idea to a viable product or service you have to work a lot and for out a pile of money. In most cases, the person who has the idea is not able to convert it to a successful product or service. Either because he/she lacks to knowledge for the next stages or because money is a problem. That's why companies hire these people or purchase their seminal concept (in most cases a patent) and invest to develop it into something usable. Is anything wrong with that?"
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder
Basically nothing wrong with that, but what about companies buying patents in order to prevent other companies/individuals from producing new gadgets that could put in danger their own products? Just to put the patent in a drawer and let them sleep until they can be useful.
It is pure logic, if you sell cars which consume oil, you don´t want cars which consume electricity and you will do "ANYTHING", and this includes "war, murder and much more", to prevent this to happen. Have you seen the movie "Syriaca"
Do you think that if Barak Obama starts promoting wind, solar and other renewable energies and electric cars very quickly, do you think that he is going to survive? Most probably he will end like Kennedy. And corporations will pay for it.
I have known a very nice person in Germany who in the 70s came up with a very good idea. He invented a motor which could reduce oil consumption to 3 or 4 liters/100 km and he and his colleague came idealistically with the idea and put it forward to Mercedes.
Mercedes said, thank you, very interesting, but not interesting for us. We earn lots of money with cars which consume lots of oil. We are not interested. This was in the seventies.
Do you still think that creativity comes from the corporations?
There is creativity, despite corporations. Corporations tend to "control" creativity, not foster creativity. I think that Germany is a very good country with lots of ideas but the corporations, even the German corporations, are not German any more, they are part of "the system". But in Germany, and hopefully in China, India, Russia, Brazil, etc, there are a lot of independent and geniously-drive small and middle-sized companies which can make the difference.
I find a pity that with 1.300 million people and so much translation need and translation projects there is not many Chinese translators participating in fora like this one. Is it too dangerous for them to participate and put their names in fora?
Let´s take your example, google. Why is google not been created in Microsoft? Why is Microsfot not been created in IBM?
Let´s talk about motivation and about how ideas come about. What do you think?. Google, according to what Jaap said to me, gives 20% of their employees working time to think freely and give feedback of this free thinking. Well, this is a way to say that peoples´ideas are so important that we give 20% of the time for this. But how many ideas came from this? I am exceptical. Ideas come as associations and they had a lot to do with our past and our circunstamces. It is very important to have multidisciplinary aproaches to new ideas/products. And you have to always have a paper or dictaphone (most mobiles phones have this function, so please, people, use it, don´t let good ideas go away, record them becauses what is not recorded or written, is lost, and most probably lost forever).
Now motivation. What moves people? Money? Just money? I don´t think so. What motivates you to read this thread or to participate in this thread. It is not money. You earn nothing with it. Like Aristoteles said the main motivation is curiosity. Intelectual curiosity, to know how this could be solved, how this works, what the hell is wrong with the microwave,
Another motivation is people. You could do anything for your partner (this is now politically correct) or for your children, your family, your friends, like I will do. And this is not money.
And I repeat, ideology, war, patriotism are motivations much more important than money.
Paraphrasing Archimedes: Give me where to stand and I will move the earth.
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