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日本語の文字化け (garbled Japanese characters)
Thread poster: Minoru Kuwahara
Minoru Kuwahara
Japan
Local time: 19:57
English to Japanese
+ ...
Jun 13, 2003

前々から思っていましたが、ProZ.com の KudoZ やフォーラムで日本語を入力すると頻繁に文字化けが発生します。相変わらずというか、ProZ 自身の内容はいろいろと変わってもこれだけは変わらないようです。日本語入力する場合、今の対応では再入力して示すということも多いかと思いますが、その場合もやはり文字が化けることもあります。誤解に結びつくことがなければそれでもいいかと思います。ただ単に一部分が文字ばけするならその箇所は想像におまかせして放っておくという手もあり、KudoZ の方ではそうするより他ないと思いますが、フォーラムなどに投稿して文字化けだらけになると、ひとつひとつその箇所を示すこと自体がむずかしくなります。その上それがまた文字化けしたら・・・などと考えると訂正もしたくなくなります。

特に肝心な部分がぼろぼろと文字化けしているのはユーザーの立場からすると残念です。先日、ProZ のバグのフォーラムにこの件を投稿しましたが、人の目にはなかなかつかないようです。これは日本語だけの問題なのか、他のアジア系言語でもそうなのか知りませんが、肝心な言葉が文字化けすると、言っていることが伝わらず、誤って解釈されてしまう可能性もあるかと思います。日本語はここでは少数言語(?)ということで、甘んじているより他ないんでしょうか?Henry さんはこの問題について何か対応されていらしゃるのでしょうか?

このサイトのユニバーサルな性格を考えれば、「特殊文字の言語はつらいよ」ということでしょうか(笑)。

http://www.proz.com/topic/7704


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Ellen Kapusniak
Local time: 10:57
Japanese to English
Is anyone listening? Jun 13, 2003

Kuwahara-san makes a valid point - again.

I read this post and then looked at the link; this needs to be sorted out. The link provided shows that concerns were raised almost 5 months ago. Is no-one interested because this is a problem with Japanese, and they don't think it that important? Is Kuwahara-san's post being overlooked because it is written in Japanese?

I think that those who have expressed their frustration with the problem of garbled characters deserve some kind of reply. If there were a difficulty with inputting English on the site, it would certainly be attended to straight away.

Ellen Brown


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satoko takiguchi  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 19:57
Japanese to English
+ ...
同感です Jun 14, 2003

こんにちわ。
私はまだ新参者なのですが、文字化けには気がついていました。
なんというか、日本語が少数言語であるときがつかされた気がします。(笑)


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Philip Ronan
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:57
Japanese to English
+ ...
Is there anybody out there ...? Jun 18, 2003

Well once again it seems that this issue has been completely ignored.

I've mentioned this problem before. It happens when the second byte of a 2-byte SJIS character has the same value as a backslash character. There is no need to trap backslash characters in KudoZ questions/answers, so this problem could easily be fixed.

But apparently nobody at ProZ can be bothered to do anything about it.

Oh well. Let's try again at Christmas. Perhaps they'll be feeling a bit more generous then.


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horse
Local time: 19:57
Member (2004)
English to Japanese
+ ...
Henry ! Please do something ! Jun 24, 2003

I have just been answering a Kudoz question and, as usual, garbling of the message and the tedious task of redoing your answer in the additional space. Rather frustrating. More frustrating is when the askers don't bother to correct the garbling. That leaves us wondering what the question was all about.

Henry, please ! Do something about this situation. Since you speak Japanese, you must have noticed it happen in the kudoz and in the forums.

Somebody mentioned above that it makes those of us dealing with the Japanese language that we are quite a minority on this site.
I agree !

[Edited at 2003-06-24 15:14]


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Minoru Kuwahara
Japan
Local time: 19:57
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
i'm not joking any more... Jun 26, 2003

Hello members and moderators,

Thank you all for paying attention to my post about the matter, now I know it's not only me that's been confused by this Japanese character conversion occurring in this place. I should re-stress that it IS bothering for all posters to the Japanese forum in Proz.com with a constant concern about illegibility or misunderstanding of certain key terms and phrases, or other parts in our posts.

Today it's happening again and no one seems to be noticing it! Now Philip reveals the point for this cause:

> I've mentioned this problem before. It happens when the second byte of a 2-byte SJIS character has the same value as a backslash character. There is no need to trap backslash characters in KudoZ questions/answers, so this problem could easily be fixed.

I don't guess if it could be an easy job to fix this part as he says or if it's not so easy as it's supposed to be, while my biggest question is who is in charge of this aspect of this website - TROUBLESHOOTING, we would say as translators - after all. I'm kept to think about who's viewing after my initial post or a response to an old thread since nobody seems to be doing anything about it really.

Here are people who are crying out as you see. Who's hearing our voices, and where are the moderators in charge? Are they free from all of this besides us, the Japanese users? I'm not joking about what's hapenning here in the Japanese forum or KudoZ, which is not what we are writing or how we are using here, but it's just what we are reading in these Japanese pages and how any kind of modification is to be done. Nothing done, misunderstanding and unclarified answers.

Dearest moderators, please note English or other European languages are not only languages used here. We have other languages with special characters peculiar to themselves, which are important to us to be shown as naturally as we read them in any of our country's standard websites. I rarely come across similar cases when browsing Japanese sites, then why should it be happening here in our language professoinals' forum? I know this is a global site originally, however this trouble seems to have been constantly out of any attention for a real normaliation of the site for the Japanese users. As we see, more and more Japanese users are accessing ProZ and the potentiality or status of our Asian languages here are not the same as in the past years any more.

Anyway, I sincerely hope ProZ truly becomes a multi-language professional translators' site for any ones writing and reading in multi-languages.

Thank you,
Minoru Kuwahara
桑原 稔


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Dorian Kenleigh
United States
Local time: 05:57
Japanese to English
Has anyone tried playing with their browser's encoding? Apr 26, 2004

My original, more detailed post was just deleted by an inadvertent mis-click, so I'm going to quickly summarize a way around garbled Japanese and post the technical explanation later should anyone be interested.

I've noticed that posters using Japanese post using four different encoding schemes

-Shift-JIS
-Japanese (EUC)
-Simplified Chinese (GB18030)
-Chinese Simplified (GB2417)

Japanese text encoded using a scheme different from your browser's setting will appear garbled until you change the setting. Fortunately, in Internet Explorer at least, this is very easy to do.

HOW TO CHANGE ENCODING IN YOUR BROWSER -
------------------

1. In IE, click "View" -> "Encoding" -> and select one of the four schemes I've listed above. If they aren't shown, click the "More" menu and find them there. If they don't appear on the "More" menu, stay tuned and I'll explain below.

2. After selecting an encoding scheme, the page should reload. If the text still doesn't make any sense, try a different encoding. After a few tries you should get something that makes sense.


***"But I don't have the proper languages on the "More" menu! Help!

If the languages don't appear on your menu, you don't have them installed on your computer. Here's how you install Asian languages in Windows XP:

1. Open "My Computer"

2. In My Computer open "Control Panel"

3. In Control Panel open "Regional and
Language Options"

4. Click the "Languages" tab

5. In the "Supplemental Language Support" block, check "Install files for East Asian Languages" if it is unchecked. At this point Windows will install some files and may ask fo your CD. If it asks you to restart, go ahead and do so then begin again at step 6. If the box is checked go to 6.

6. Click the "Advanced" tab

7. In the "Code page conversion tables" area, make sure that any Japanese or Chinese related blocks are checked.

8. Click "ok"

Windows may go through and install some more files then ask you to restart. You should now be able to flip through your encodings whenever you're confronted with jibber-jabber Japanese on ProZ.

I hope that this information helps. If anyone sees some errors here or has advice for users of other OSes or Browsers, please help us out.



And for what it's worth, I agree that the ProZ operators should just force everything into one encoding instead of subjecting us to tedious trial and error page reloading.


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Andreas Yan  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:57
English to Chinese
+ ...
Hi,Dorian.It doesn't work! Apr 27, 2004

First of all,thanks for your help.I just followed your ways but got no sense.It seems to me that the problem probably is here.I live in China and use my browser to live news watching of the NHK program everyday even I can read today's YOMIURI newspaper all the time if I'd like to.There is no problem at all here on my computer.Only in KudoZ, sometimes I can see Japanese text and the most time I can not.Especially, when the poster come from other area outside China,it is almost impossible for me to understand because all Japanese characters are garbled here on ProZ.com.Mr FuJiNoRi also told me that he faced the same problem many times.Is there anybody has experience to overcome this headache here?Thanks in advance.

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:57
SITE FOUNDER
Examples, please! Apr 27, 2004

Hi all,

Sorry for not handling this sooner.

I am in Japan now and can get access to a Japanese OS. If you can give me examples of garbled Japanese KudoZ questions, I will work things out.

Thanks!
Henry


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Minoru Kuwahara
Japan
Local time: 19:57
English to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thank you for your attention Apr 28, 2004

Henry wrote:

Hi all,

Sorry for not handling this sooner.

I am in Japan now and can get access to a Japanese OS. If you can give me examples of garbled Japanese KudoZ questions, I will work things out.

Thanks!
Henry


Hi Henry,

Welcome back to Japan. Thank you for your attention on this issue. I just would like to pick up a few examples of this "mojibake" which I see is peculiar to certain Chinese characters. Here are the links .

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/698745
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/682633

These links show examples of garbled characters of "ミネソタ (minesota)" (Minnesota) and "表現 (hyougen)" (expression).

I have just briefly reviewed some of the posts in the Japanese forum and recent KudoZ, which are typed in Japanese, and noticed "mojibake" definitely depends on what particular Chinese charaters we try using in our posts at anywhere and everywhere we type in Japanese within the entire ProZ. This may not be caused just by encoding on our browsers.

To tell you the turth, personally I'm not being annoyed by this phenomenon recently as much as I used to when I was presuming these garbled characters prevented us from making certain points clear in our ponts or comments. I may see significant "mojibake" in fewer cases for months. (Why? I do not know.) On the other hand, I would much appreciate if it would be taken care of in some way for the site.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK!

-Minoru Kuwahara
桑原 稔


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xxxvalueplus
Local time: 19:57
Japanese to English
+ ...
おそらく May 1, 2004

Minoru Kuwahara wrote:

前々から思っていましたが、ProZ.com の KudoZ やフォーラムで日本語を入力すると頻繁に文字化けが発生します。相変わらずというか、ProZ 自身の内容はいろいろと変わってもこれだけは変わらないようです。

原因は、サーバーが2バイトコードに
対応していないためでしょう。
hotmailでも経験しました。

運営者側がどこまで面倒みてくれるか、
つもりがあるかに尽きるでしょう。

このサイトのユニバーサルな性格を考えれば、「特殊文字の言語はつらいよ」ということでしょうか(笑)。

つらいよ、では困りますね。
すくなくとも登録するときにサポートしない
と明言しているなら別ですけどね。

http://www.proz.com/topic/7704[/quote]

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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:57
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Recent example Aug 28, 2004

Henry wrote:

Hi all,

Sorry for not handling this sooner.

I am in Japan now and can get access to a Japanese OS. If you can give me examples of garbled Japanese KudoZ questions, I will work things out.

Thanks!
Henry



Henry,
I hope you are following this Forum.
Here is a fresh example of the same problem.

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/796705
It has nothing to do with what encoding we use to view the page.

Here the word
イサトワ
funou (as in impossible, incapable)
got garbled.

Please take a look at Philip's posting on this very same thread from last year, I think he is right.
There is something about certain kanji characters and he was thinking that the problem occurs when the second half of the 2-byte Kanji character has the same code as the backslash.
Please, please check it out and fix it, it has been a problem for a very long time.

P.S: After I submitted this posting, I saw that the word got garbled even here...

[Edited at 2004-08-28 02:46]


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Philip Ronan
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:57
Japanese to English
+ ...
Use EUC encoding Mar 10, 2005

I've finally worked out what the problem is. If we all start using EUC encoding in the forums and Kudoz pages, the mojibake problems should go away. Here's why...

The Proz.com server uses the PHP scripting language to process all the web pages. When you use PHP to access input provided from a web page, it automatically adds backslash characters to all the quotation marks. This is to prevent something called "SQL injection", which I won't bore you with here (ask Google if you're interested)

A side-effect of this feature is that text containing backslashes is not handled reliably. Unfortunately, this creates problems with Japanese text. As you probably already know, Japanese characters are generally encoded using 16 bits per character, so each Japanese character occupies the same amount of data as two romaji characters. If you treat these 16-bit Japanese characters as two separate entities, the second character sometimes corresponds to a backslash. As a result, it gets mangled by the Proz.com server.

This problem can be avoided by using EUC-JP encoding instead. If I understand things correctly, there are no EUC-JP encoded characters that are likely to cause problems with PHP scripts.

Just as a quick test, here are a few of the characters that always appear incorrectly in Shift-JIS encoding. They should appear correctly in this message:

― (horizontal dash)
ソ (katakana SO)
噂 (kanji UWASA)
能 (kanji NOU)

I don't suppose we can expect too much activity from Proz.com on this issue, but it would be nice if someone could add a META tag to the HTML head sections of the Japanese kudoz and forum pages (at least the pages where people type in their questions/messages) so that EUC-JP encoding is selected by default. Something like this would do it:

<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=EUC-JP">

[Edited at 2005-03-10 19:01]


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Kurt Hammond  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:57
Japanese to English
DBCS - aware version of PHP? Apr 6, 2005

It has almost 2 years since the problem was raised, and still we are experiencing mojibake in the Japanese KudoZ forums.

Is there a double-byte-character-system - aware version of PHP that could be used?? Or, could the SQL injection prevention feature be turned off when Japanese is detected?

I think it will be hard to try to get everyone to enter text in EUC.

(The reason there are no problems with EUC is because EUC encoding only codes using the standard ASCII characters with 7 bits, instead of also using 8th bit.)


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Philip Ronan
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:57
Japanese to English
+ ...
Things are going from bad to worse... Apr 26, 2005

I can't read anything in Japanese here any more Why? Because all the pages in this website now contain the following markup:

>meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"<

How is my browser supposed to display Japanese characters when they've been encoded into a Western character set?

The ProZ.com developers really seem to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic sometimes...


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