| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Enhancement of the KudoZ system by discouraging questions without context - A proposal Thread poster: Ángel Domínguez
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| "Doctor, my arm aches!"..... "Then have an aspirine!" | Jul 3, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
The main goal of the KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help.
Let me ask you this Enrique: If your arm aches one day and you go to the doctor, is it good enough if he quickly asks you to have an aspirine and go home?
You surely answer your doctor's questions, I reckon. And you surely want your doctor (who is someone who is supposedly more expert in your health than yourself) to check your blood pressure, do some tests in case of doubt, and only then suggest a treatment. And very certainly your doctor will not suggest a treatment unless you answer his questions, right? And nobody questions the fact that the doctor is entitled to ask and needs your feedback.
Anybody bezerk enough to rush to the doctor and ask for just ANYTHING NOW NO MATTER WHAT will probably get a placebo. Is that what the person needs?
Why should a translation deserve less care and attention? Isn't it as critical and vital for the asker's business and future success?
Patients need a real doctor and a proper treatment! Askers need proper answers!
[Edited at 2008-07-03 18:15]
| | | | | We don't help askers with everything | Jul 3, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
Blocking the question would be incompatible with the main objective of helping the asker.
People blocking the question could be wrong, the context may be enough for a specialist. The opposite situation could also happen, but in case of doubt allowing is better than blocking.
Enrique
But KudoZ moderators and editors already have the option to squash (block) questions that don't meet certain criteria and reclassify questions from pro to non-pro. So the site has already conceded that we can't help all askers with everything. If an asker wants to know what computer he should buy, the question is blocked and he is referred to the forums. If an asker consistently refuses to give context or refuses to learn what context is, maybe he should be referred to KiddoZ (to be created), where he can do anything he wants to.
Reason for removing question:
Offensive (sexist, racist, etc.)
Adult nature and/or profane
Unprofessional; lacks literary/technical merit
Nonsense
Repetition (ie. exactly same as prev/next question)
Text to be translated is longer than ten words
Question includes more than one term
Not a language question
Incomplete question
Asker and answerer the same
Asker requested removal of question
| | | | | Article on deciding when to squash a question | Jul 3, 2008 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Reason for removing question:
Offensive (sexist, racist, etc.)
Adult nature and/or profane
Unprofessional; lacks literary/technical merit
Nonsense
Repetition (ie. exactly same as prev/next question)
Text to be translated is longer than ten words
Question includes more than one term
Not a language question
Incomplete question
Asker and answerer the same
Asker requested removal of question
Hi Kim,
Thanks for bringing this forward. The complete information can be found in the following article
In particular for incomplete questions the article states:
Incomplete question
A question should not be removed for lacking context. However, if a question is truly incomplete (ex: "q" with no context), it may be removed.
For questions lacking in context, ask the asker for more context, but do not make the question invisible.
Enrique
| | | | | Forget the rules, for a moment. Let's think about quality. | Jul 3, 2008 |
Enrique wrote: Thanks for bringing this forward. The complete information can be found in the following article In particular for incomplete questions the article states:
Incomplete question
A question should not be removed for lacking context. However, if a question is truly incomplete (ex: "q" with no context), it may be removed.
For questions lacking in context, ask the asker for more context, but do not make the question invisible.
It's nice to be reminded of the rules, but it would be even nicer if someone (staff, moderators) would seriously examine the merits of Angel's proposal and forget for a moment what the current rules (guidelines) state. I thought the site was interested in improving quality. Maybe not.
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Juan Jacob 
Mexico
Local time: 22:21
French to Spanish
+ ...
We, answers, are stubborn people: we like to help, for XXX reason, and that's why we beg for CONTEXT! (Henry Hinds ditto). And it is quite discouraging not to have it, but we keep on. We too know that a lot of usuers are'nt aware of ProZ's rules, and CONTEXT! is a basic one, IMO. Why don't put it clearly on sight of the askerer?
And I'm surprised to know that some rules aren't really rules, and other, yes, and enforceable.
[Editado a las 2008-07-03 18:34]
| | | | Marina Soldati
Argentina
Local time: 01:21
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I completely agree | Jul 3, 2008 |
[quote]Angel Dominguez wrote:
Add a button to the current form buttons already present (Answer / Ask asker / Track / Edit ...). The new button would be called "More context needed", or something to that effect. When, say, 3 or more prospective answerers click that button, the system would disable that KudoZ question, keeping it from appearing in the site; the asker would be notified that more context is needed, so he/she would have to provide it to have the question show up again (my thought is that it would have to be moved to the top of the KudoZ list, so it is not missed if the asker provides the necessary context hours later - that's the web designer in me speaking!).
Hi all!
I completely agree with Angel, Tomás and Pablo.
This issue has been brought up many times but no action has been taken.
Enrique, why don´t you carry out a survey to see what the professionals think about it?
I find Angel´s proposal quite interesting.
Maybe the "More context needed" button can be used by users/members with a certain number of Kudoz points, just as the Edit button is, with a minimum of three or four clicks to return the question to the Asker until more context is provided, as Angel suggests.
My 2 cents
Marina
PS: please, forgive my English.
| | | | | We enjoy doing it.... but doing it right! | Jul 3, 2008 |
Marina Soldati wrote:
Enrique, why don´t you carry out a survey to see what the professionals think about it?
I find Angel´s proposal quite interesting.
Maybe the "More context needed" button can be used by users/members with a certain number of Kudoz points, just as the Edit button is, with a minimum of three or four clicks to return the question to the Asker until more context is provided, as Angel suggests.
I entirely agree. We spend quite some time answering questions. We certainly enjoy it, but seeing poor questions getting bad answers is tremendously discouraging.
Cross your heart: Haven't you all frequent answerers decided many times to forget about Proz.com completely and unsubscribe, just because of the frustration caused by poorly managed questions and answers? After a while "recovering from our wounds" we eventually come back for more, just because we enjoy helping other people.
But in fact Kudoz's leader lists show the names of great answerers who got tired of nonsensical askers and poor answers. One day we will engross the list too unless something is done!
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Dear Enrique:
You say that:
>Rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1 is more a guideline than a rule, as it is not enforceable in practice.<
Well, that happens with most rules referring to Askers, and some of those related to Answerers, even if they are called "Rules" and are worded with "must" or "should".
However, tha... See more Dear Enrique:
You say that:
>Rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1 is more a guideline than a rule, as it is not enforceable in practice.<
Well, that happens with most rules referring to Askers, and some of those related to Answerers, even if they are called "Rules" and are worded with "must" or "should".
However, that should not automatically mean that nothing can be done to improve the situation, or at least try to help Askers make a better use of the system.
Cheer up !
You are all doing a wonderful job, and we are grateful for it !
Pablo ▲ Collapse
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| No context provided just because of laziness or impoliteness? | Jul 3, 2008 |
Angel Dominguez wrote:
... when they ask a question, many times no context is provided. In my opinion that just shows two things:
1) Utter _laziness_
2) Complete disregard for the answerers
In my opinion, it is much more than simple laziness or impoliteness.
An asker who does not care about the context as a very basic frame for requesting some kind of translation help does not understand a word of the essence of translation, of what translation means. They show themselves up by that simple fact.
Curiously, not all but many of those no-context-fan askers who believe that words live as isolated galaxies seem to have at least a couple of hundred years of practice in the translation industry, upon their profiles. Amazing! They have plenty of experience but they don't even know that words have their sense within a context!
By the way, I agree with your proposal.
Cheers,
Sandra
[Edited at 2008-07-03 22:16]
[Edited at 2008-07-03 22:18]
| | | | | Missing in combat | Jul 3, 2008 |
I thought I'd just give some examples of people who contributed generously to Kudoz in the past, great professionals who have stopped helping because of Kudoz's quality issues. They are all top-50's in the leader lists.
Who can doubt that it would be an enormous asset to have these people visiting every day? Who would doubt that these people know when context is a must and when not?
- Marian Greenfield
- Valentín Hernández Lima
- hecdan
- Ruth Hende... See more I thought I'd just give some examples of people who contributed generously to Kudoz in the past, great professionals who have stopped helping because of Kudoz's quality issues. They are all top-50's in the leader lists.
Who can doubt that it would be an enormous asset to have these people visiting every day? Who would doubt that these people know when context is a must and when not?
- Marian Greenfield
- Valentín Hernández Lima
- hecdan
- Ruth Henderson
Sorry folks, I am only in the German>Spanish and English>Spanish pairs. I am sure you can remember names like this in your pairs.
So let's fix this folks!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ángel Domínguez
Spain
Local time: 06:21
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Another reason for having proper context | Jul 3, 2008 |
Hi everyone,
it's exciting to see the amount of replies this idea has generated, and I find many of your ideas very interesting. There is one of them that could be referred to as a compromise solution:
if a question had more than "x" activations of said button, no glossary entry allowed !
That'd be fine, but it still wouldn't have any effect on the askers; and there is another important reason for having context... Some of you said that there can be experts who don't need any kind of context to give a proper answer, but even if the answer they provide is 100% perfect, there's still the issue of the low value of that KudoZ entry for use as reference. When you are searching the KudoZ for a translation of a difficult word or sentence, and the system shows a match for your search, but when you click it there's no background, no context, how can you be really sure that's what you were looking for?
So, IMO, a beneficial side-effect of such system would be that it doesn't only discourage lazy askers, but also helps to improve the KudoZ database as a reference tool, having rich information for most questions.
It's more than just information, it's information about the information, which is called knowledge. Picture this: you have a JPEG file that is called picture02.jpg; it's the one you need, the one you're looking for, but if the filename isn't something more descriptive, or the file has no metadata, it would be almost impossible to associate that file with the amazing shot you took while skydiving, which you made the poor decision to name picture02.jpg.
Context is that metadata. Of course, I am aware that some questions need almost no context, but it's not what usually happens; and, when you ask a question, it's not SO HARD to paste an extra portion of the source text, if you don't feel like giving an explanation.
And thank you all again for your interesting comments.
Regards,
Ángel.
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 06:21
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Rules are there to be reviewed and amended, if appropriate | Jul 3, 2008 |
Kim Metzger wrote: Enrique wrote: Thanks for bringing this forward. The complete information can be found in the following article In particular for incomplete questions the article states:
Incomplete question
A question should not be removed for lacking context. However, if a question is truly incomplete (ex: "q" with no context), it may be removed.
For questions lacking in context, ask the asker for more context, but do not make the question invisible.
It's nice to be reminded of the rules, but it would be even nicer if someone (staff, moderators) would seriously examine the merits of Angel's proposal and forget for a moment what the current rules (guidelines) state. I thought the site was interested in improving quality. Maybe not.
You are right, Kim. Although KudoZ rules must be adhered to as they stand now, no rule is set in stone, and rules should be reviewed, and amended if required, in the light of new circumstances/proposals. On a related note to Enrique, it is not very helpful to just cite the rules ever so inflexibly - please do seriously consider the merits of the suggestion put forward in this thread. Also, I disagree, in the strongest of terms, with your remark that the KudoZ glossary is a "peripheral" outcome (in other words, an unimportant "by-product").
My 2c worth,
Steffen
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| Peripheral but enforced? | Jul 3, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
The main goal of the KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help. The fact that an archive of previously posted terms with suggested translations has built up is a planned, yet peripheral, benefit.
I don't quite understand why glossaries are a peripheral benefit if making glossary entries is enforced by the rules.
- http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.7#2.7: "Glossary entries should be made upon the close of the question. At the time a question is closed, an asker is expected to make a glossary entry--with source and target terms both in dictionary form--using the form provided. Questions that do not lend themselves to inclusion in a glossary are exempted. "
Protecting their quality is critical, as they are indeed a planned result of Kudoz contributions and work.
And in fact, Kudoz glossaries are part of Proz.com's value proposal. Does the following ring a bell? ;.)
http://www.proz.com/?sp=info/prem&inquire=1&viewPage=features
"Want to get the most of this site? Become a member of ProZ.com and gain advantages and extra features in each area of the site--jobs, directory, KudoZ, the forums, the outsourcer Blue Board and more."
"Ability to search ProZ.com user glossaries, and KudoZ archives of over 1 million terms"
Maybe Kudoz glossaries are not that peripheral after all?
[Edited at 2008-07-03 22:14]
| | | | | 3 days in the life of an answerer | Jul 3, 2008 |
Enrique, you are a translator yourself. But you don't answer questions in Kudoz as much as I can see in your profile. Let me propose this to you: Why don't you spend 1 hour every day, let's say for 3 days, in the English>Spanish combination? You will clearly see what we mean with our concerns!
I sincerely encourage you to experience it first-hand as an answerer. You might be surprised how cheeky and disrespectful of rules askers can get! Enjoy!
[Edited at 2008-07-03 22:15]
| | | | Marina Soldati
Argentina
Local time: 01:21
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Steffen is right | Jul 3, 2008 |
Steffen Walter wrote:
Also, I disagree, in the strongest of terms, with your remark that the KudoZ glossary is a "peripheral" outcome (in other words, an unimportant "by-product").
My 2c worth,
Steffen
I can´t understand why Enrique considers Kudoz glossary a peripheral outcome. In fact, I think the glossary, together with the Blue Board, are the two most useful features at Proz, that´s one of the reasons I answer questions. The research I do when answering a question may come in handy for my future jobs.
Marina
[Edited at 2008-07-03 22:13]
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