| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Kudoz: do you help colleagues who are clearly translating out of their mother tongue? Thread poster: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
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that there always be people who will find an excuse to do what they are not supposed to do... well, it's human nature, isn't it? Obviously the concept of 'professional standards' must be a very flexible one...
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
that there always be people who will find an excuse to do what they are not supposed to do... well, it's human nature, isn't it? Obviously the concept of 'professional standards' must be a very flexible one...
There will always be judgmental people with "holier-then-thou", or rather, "more-professional-then-thou" attitude... and of course, human nature is a convenient scapegoat.
Just what do you mean, Giovanni, by "not supposed to"? Not supposed to according to whom?
Oh, I think I know the answer... There were eleven commandments originally, and not ten, and the eleventh commandment was "Thou shall not translate into your non-native language, never ever, no matter how well you know it, no matter how hard you had worked to learn it, no matter how many years you have lived in a country where it's spoken, no matter how easily you can express yourself in it... you just don't do it - period!", but St. Jerome has omitted it from his translation... I wonder what his motive would have been?
| | | | | Translating into English | Aug 6, 2008 |
It doesn't bother me one bit that Chinese translators translate into English, and I am very happy to help.
There are Chinese journalists working in English, Chinese lawyers working in English, Chinese doctors working in English etc, etc, and many many graduates of English-medium universities. That's not to mention the Singaporean translators and Hong Kongers, where English is or was an official language.
It is not at all surprising that most of the Chinese-English tra... See more It doesn't bother me one bit that Chinese translators translate into English, and I am very happy to help.
There are Chinese journalists working in English, Chinese lawyers working in English, Chinese doctors working in English etc, etc, and many many graduates of English-medium universities. That's not to mention the Singaporean translators and Hong Kongers, where English is or was an official language.
It is not at all surprising that most of the Chinese-English translators are Chinese native speakers. It's not easy for someone like myself to compete, particularly on reading-speed from Chinese. Agencies may prefer to employ someone who translates both ways.
What is more, English is a lingua franca in much of Asia I would say, so it's 'horses for courses'. The text doesn't have to be 'idiomatic' to be good enough for many purposes.
It would be interesting to hear about India.
[Edited at 2008-08-06 23:09] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nesrin 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:25
English to Arabic
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
it's this attitude that is driving the best professionals away from Kudoz...
I will say this once and promise not to let myself into any further discussion about this.
These are the facts from my point of view (and I'll only talk about one particular language combination I know about, Arabic to English):
1. Arabic > English is a language combination for which there is a very high demand.
2. There are comparatively few native English speakers who are capable of translating complex Arabic texts.
3. Clients therefore sometimes see the need to look for Arabic native speakers who can translate into English.
4. Although, as I said in another posting above, a lot of those who claim to translate into English are incapable of stringing an error-free English sentence together, there are those who can actually produce good, readable translations (esp. technical, non-literary texts).
5. It's the client's responsibility to find a native English speaker to proofread these good translations.
6. For the reasons above, it really saddens me when all those translating from their native language are tarred with the same brush and treated (on these forums) as swindlers or rogue traders. A little bit more tolerance and understanding would be highly appreciated.
A couple of personal points:
6. I no longer translate into English, because, as an ITI member, I am no longer authorised to translate into anything other than my native tongue. But I do find this frustrating sometimes.
7. When I did translate into English, I got nothing but praise from both agencies and end-clients.
That's all. Thank you for your patience.
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Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
Oh, I think I know the answer... There were eleven commandments originally, and not ten, and the eleventh commandment was "Thou shall not translate into your non-native language, never ever, no matter how well you know it, no matter how hard you had worked to learn it, no matter how many years you have lived in a country where it's spoken, no matter how easily you can express yourself in it... you just don't do it - period!"
exactly... let's raise the standards in our industry.
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Nesrin wrote:
6. I no longer translate into English, because, as an ITI member, I am no longer authorised to translate into anything other than my native tongue. But I do find this frustrating sometimes.
as you know, I'm an ITI member as well... if you find it really frustrating, all you have to do is stop being an ITI member. I don't quite understand why you are, since you enjoyed translating into English so much. Why support an association which stops you doing that? What are the advantages for you?
| | | | Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:25
English to Arabic
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
as you know, I'm an ITI member as well... if you find it really frustrating, all you have to do is stop being an ITI member. I don't quite understand why you are, since you enjoyed translating into English so much. Why support an association which stops you doing that? What are the advantages for you?
Well isn't that a perfect, to-the-point reply to my message? Glad you managed to skim over the first part!
Why I've become an ITI member is a personal matter - I don't need to justify myself here. There may be much more advantages to being a member than disadvantages (and indeed there are, but I'm sure you know that, being a member yourself).
I'm out of here - please kick me if I come back to this discussion.
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what you say it's understandable, but to me it's still unethical... I skimmed over the first part because I found the reasoning behind it quite embarrasing, to be honest.
But since you are asking for a comment...
1. Arabic > English is a language combination for which there is a very high demand.
So what?
2. There are comparatively few native English speakers who are capable of translating complex Arabic texts.
So what? It still doesn't mean you 'have' to do it...
3. Clients therefore sometimes see the need to look for Arabic native speakers who can translate into English.
And? You are not English mother tongue...
4. Although, as I said in another posting above, a lot of those who claim to translate into English are incapable of stringing an error-free English sentence together, there are those who can actually produce good, readable translations (esp. technical, non-literary texts).
Don't believe it for a single moment... someone who translate into their source language will never be able to produce a text which is on par with a text produced by a professional translator who translates into his/her mother tongue....
5. It's the client's responsibility to find a native English speaker to proofread these good translations.
no, it's your responsability to say 'no' in the first place...
6. For the reasons above, it really saddens me when all those translating from their native language are tarred with the same brush and treated (on these forums) as swindlers or rogue traders. A little bit more tolerance and understanding would be highly appreciated.
Because, given the reasons above, they are rogue traders and swindlers...
I have never seen a good translation provided by a translator who works out of his/her mother tongue. It just does not cut the mustard. Then, people can kid themselves and carry on doing a disservice to the industry... it's their prerogative... sadly.
[Edited at 2008-08-07 09:43]
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| Thank you so much for your kindness, Giovanni | Aug 7, 2008 |
After 20+ years on the job I've finally been classified as a rogue trader and swindler.
Just because my customers require my work for the reasons spelt out by Jabberwock on page 1 of this thread (and testified to by people working in other language pairs). The customers praise my performance - most of them being native speakers of the language I translate into (50-60% of the time), and ALL of them being well aware I am not a native speaker myself.
So far I've been of the opini... See more After 20+ years on the job I've finally been classified as a rogue trader and swindler.
Just because my customers require my work for the reasons spelt out by Jabberwock on page 1 of this thread (and testified to by people working in other language pairs). The customers praise my performance - most of them being native speakers of the language I translate into (50-60% of the time), and ALL of them being well aware I am not a native speaker myself.
So far I've been of the opinion that the forums are meant for discussion. Your standpoint seems to be they are for preaching your beliefs, no matter what arguments against are raised. This is the sort of exchange I don't wish to be involved in.
Regards
PS Upon seeing Michał's post below - I am also one of the sworn translators in Poland. And I assure you I'd be in serious trouble if I refused a request from any Polish court or prosecutor's office to translate their legal documents / correspondence into English without presenting a very good reason. The most probable outcome would be having my professional licence of a sworn translator revoked for life.
[Edited at 2008-08-07 11:01] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | one more thing to add | Aug 7, 2008 |
Sworn* translators in Poland are obliged to translate from and into their native language.
*Sworn, i.e. certified by the Ministry of Justice and having passed relevant exams.
Food for thought.
Michał
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 13:25
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Reality check | Aug 7, 2008 |
I'm sorry, Giovanni, but limiting this issue only to the "native vs. non-native" makes it absurd.
You are assuming that there is always a choice between a native target language translator (NTL) translator and a non-NTL one with essentially the same subject matter competence. This would be ideal, of course, but it is rarely the case.
Let's take a purely hypothetical example: there is a famous Polish surgeon who has studied several years at American universities (and the... See more I'm sorry, Giovanni, but limiting this issue only to the "native vs. non-native" makes it absurd.
You are assuming that there is always a choice between a native target language translator (NTL) translator and a non-NTL one with essentially the same subject matter competence. This would be ideal, of course, but it is rarely the case.
Let's take a purely hypothetical example: there is a famous Polish surgeon who has studied several years at American universities (and then lectured there), attends all the important conferences, fluently reads relevant articles, in other words - it can be seen that he devoted significant amount of time to master his command of English. He has just invented a new model of a pacemaker - its construction is quite novel, but there is hope it will revolutionize the field. Now the description of this invention needs to be translated into English.
Would you really insist that the article be translated by an English native speaker and not the author of the invention himself? How many Polish-English NTL translators with substantial knowledge of pacemakers are there? Do you really claim that in this case an NTL translator would be better?
[Edited at 2008-08-07 10:59] ▲ Collapse
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Iza Szczypka wrote:
After 20+ years on the job I've finally been classified as a rogue trader and swindler.
Just because my customers require my work for the reasons spelt out by Jabberwock on page 1 of this thread (and testified to by people working in other language pairs). The customers praise my performance - most of them being native speakers of the language I translate into (50-60% of the time), and ALL of them being well aware I am not a native speaker myself.
So far I've been of the opinion that the forums are meant for discussion. Your standpoint seems to be they are for preaching your beliefs, no matter what arguments against are raised. This is the sort of exchange I don't wish to be involved in.
Regards
[Edited at 2008-08-07 10:43]
your prerogative...
Of course, who translates out of their mother tongue will find all the reasons in the world to justify it. Anyway, when I started this thread I didn't want to talk about your right to translate out of your mother tongue, but if it's ethical to help people who are clearly out of their depth and don't deserve help. Then the thread took this turn, fuelled by people who obviously felt necessary to resurrect the 'native vs non-native' debate. I disagree and I don't see why I should not be entitled to my opinions. If it offends you, I'm sorry. If you are very good at what you do, then fine, you should not feel threatened by my comments. If you do, it seems to me that you have a big chip on your shoulder... And we are discussing, I'm not preaching...
[Edited at 2008-08-07 11:04]
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Jabberwock wrote:
Let's take a purely hypothetical example: there is a famous Polish surgeon who has studied several years at American universities (and then lectured there), attends all the important conferences, fluently reads relevant articles, in other words - it can be seen that he devoted significant amount of time to master his command of English. He has just invented a new model of a pacemaker - its construction is quite novel, but there is hope it will revolutionize the field. Now the description of this invention needs to be translated into English.
Would you really insist that the article be translated by an English native speaker and not the author of the invention himself? How many Polish-English NTL translators with substantial knowledge of pacemakers are there? Do you really claim that in this case an NTL translator would be better?
[Edited at 2008-08-07 10:59]
but your example is absurd... this is a very specific case and the translation by the Polish surgeon - revised by a mother tongue expert - would be entirely justified. We are talking about hundreds of translators who daily translate into the source language, for whatever reason...
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 13:25
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Going in circles... | Aug 7, 2008 |
but your example is absurd... this is a very specific case and the translation by the Polish surgeon - revised by a mother tongue expert - would be entirely justified.
Well, if it justified, how can it be absurd?
We are talking about hundreds of translators who daily translate into the source language, for whatever reason...
Are we now? You never mentioned to whom are you really referring... Till now you were making general and sweeping comments like:
someone who translate into their source language will never be able to produce a text which is on par with a text produced by a professional translator who translates into his/her mother tongue
The point you (repeatedly!) fail to see is that in most of the described cases there is no alternative between "competent non-NTL translator" and "competent NTL translator", but it's just non-NTL translator or none at all... and yet the jobs have to be done...
Another quite biased statement:
I have never seen a good translation provided by a translator who works out of his/her mother tongue. It just does not cut the mustard.
I have. I'm sure that others will provide you with many non-NTL great translators... And what about writers? Non-natives cannot be translators but they can be writers in their non-native language?
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you have convinced me... at least regarding the less frequent language pairs... I withdraw all the nasty things I've said...
[Edited at 2008-08-07 12:17]
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