| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | KudoZ - I give up Thread poster: Viktoria Gimbe
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| Staff: Revising the Agrees/Disagrees/Neutrals rules could be a good way to start | Aug 19, 2008 |
Amy Williams wrote:
I never use "disagree". I use "neutral". The message itself shows that actually I disagree.
Failure to use the disagree button (for fear of retaliation??) where warranted is, IMO, responsible for a good deal of the mediocrity in KudoZ today.
I couldn't agree more. There is a difference between Neutrals and Disagrees, and they both should be used based on the circumstances. People should stop being afraid of disagreeing, for legitimate reasons that is. Disagrees are not personal attacks and if members give disagrees to attack someone or to just get the points, they should get warned or even banned from using the KudoZ system for a period of time.
If an answer is plain wrong, there is no reason why it should receive a "friendly" neutral instead of a disagree. It's not KudoZ etiquette, it's just misleading and it could confuse even more an already confused asker. People should stop being so sensitive, we're all adults.
For instance, in Viktoria's case, the other answerer should have used the Neutral button to comment on the regional differences, but the using the disagree button was too much, regardless of her intentions behind the disagree. And that is simply because, as others have pointed out, it might help other users and not just the original asker. I've seen plenty of well-documented answers, with the highest degree of confidence, lots of Google references, and too many agrees, and they are just wrong and should never be used under any circumstance.
On the other hand, there's also the compulsive 'agree-ers', who don't even read or care about the context as long as they get their BrowniZ. Something should be done about them too. I've already expressed my desire to receive notifications only about non-empty agrees. Maybe the agree field should be filled before submitting the agree.
Finally, I re-read my previous comment and I realized I wasn't clear. I wanted to say, not just to Viktoria, but to all of those who have given up on the KudoZ question, you really shouldn't. If you already know what's wrong with it, then you all can help fixing it and educate new and clueless users.
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writeaway wrote:
The insults you received are typical of the way KudoZ is going. Helping the asker isn't the main reason for answering any more. KudoZ is a venue for grandstanding, pretending, trying to look knowledgeable; in short, it's where people run to try to convince the world (and outsourcers) they are pro translators.
So in your opinion, a professional should try to look non-professional? I do get your point, but the motivations of the KudoZ users are irrelevant as long as they answer the questions in a professional way. The KudoZ system has more important problems than the attitude of its users.
At present, very few questions really are pro questions because answers to the majority of them are found by opening any dictionary or by a 2 second glance on the www. The ridiculous level of questions asked nowadays has removed any meaning or value of obtaining KudoZ points in any case.
I do agree with you on this one. Something should be done before KudoZ become another Wordreference where everyone can say anything. The staff should be more concerned about these urgent issues rather than keep adding more confusing features.
| | | | | Don't let 'em get you down! | Aug 19, 2008 |
Dear Viktoria:
Life is full of people who think the best way to make themselves look better is by tearing someone else down. The best revenge IMHO is to simply continue unperturbed on your path with your head held high. The real waste of time comes from responding to those who couldn't see the truth if it hit them in the head. I agree with the many comments pointing out that the overall good achieved by contributions from knowledgeable folk is far, far greater than the momentary irr... See more Dear Viktoria:
Life is full of people who think the best way to make themselves look better is by tearing someone else down. The best revenge IMHO is to simply continue unperturbed on your path with your head held high. The real waste of time comes from responding to those who couldn't see the truth if it hit them in the head. I agree with the many comments pointing out that the overall good achieved by contributions from knowledgeable folk is far, far greater than the momentary irritation of self-important pseudo-experts beating their own drums...if you walk, they win. Don't give them the power to do that.
I myself am humbly grateful for the priceless support given by proz colleagues when I've consulted Kudoz. I would hate to think that a question I asked provoked responses that resulted in a valuable contributor throwing in the towel. I don't read questions in your language pair, but if your kudoz responses are anything like your forum posts, the loss would be truly regrettable.
A big hug to you!
Liz ▲ Collapse
| | | | Viktoria Gimbe 
Canada
Local time: 05:06
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
Well, this is certainly a much more interesting discussion than I thought it would be!
Looking at the latest posts (mostly page 2), I notice that there is a bit of confusion in making the difference between spoken language and written language. Some of you seem to think that soutien is the official term in Quebec, while support is the official term in France. I have to tell you that this is far from being the case. We also need to differentiate between official ... See more Well, this is certainly a much more interesting discussion than I thought it would be!
Looking at the latest posts (mostly page 2), I notice that there is a bit of confusion in making the difference between spoken language and written language. Some of you seem to think that soutien is the official term in Quebec, while support is the official term in France. I have to tell you that this is far from being the case. We also need to differentiate between official and standard. The former means a term that is officially accepted by language authorities (governments, dictionaries other than the unofficial ones based on usage and peer contribution such as for example KudoZ, etc.) while the latter simply means a term that is widely used. We need to make these distinctions, for the sake of understanding each other better, for the sake of KudoZ and for the sake of our profession as well.
Let me give you an example. In Quebec, spoken and written language are very different. The way people speak French here reminds a lot of our French colleagues of peasants, and I am not ashamed of that, since I know that what they call Quebec French really isn't anything more than popular language (we call it joual). This is entirely natural. So, us here in Quebec (more specifically in Montreal), when we talk about parking our cars, we say "j'ai parké mon char" - ugly, right? But most people here, if they were to make a deposition with the police, they would write "j'ai stationné mon véhicule" or "j'ai stationné ma voiture", which sounds much better. That is when we try to write real French, the kind we learn in school and that we practice all our lives in writing, in speaking in public, in our work life - but which we don't practice in everyday life because we have our own version of French when we speak which we are fond of. So, here is the difference between spoken and written French, as it applies to Quebec.
The same thing also exists in France, except that, at least for some regions of France, there isn't such a difference between spoken and wirtten language (spoken language seems to have a tendency to be carried over into written language). It is for this reason that I have decided a few years ago not to translate from French French into English - sometimes, I just don't understand what they mean. For example, the word management in English has recently become management in French, and it is not uncommon to see this word written in company statutes, documents that are expected to be written in correct French, that would rather call for the words gestion or direction, two of the correct French equivalents for management. Now, try to find the "French" word management in a dictionary, in a form that is not labeled as anglicism or slang. I am sure it is harder for the French to distinguish between spoken and written language. But that doesn't mean they should not distinguish between them. It is not because young drivers have a tendency to drink and drive that it is correct - or even accepted - to do so. And when a policeman drinks and drives - well, that makes me think of a translator translating into French using English words. S/he should know better...
The solution to this, on both sides of the ocean, is to have half a mind for avoiding anglicisms (that is, if we are still aware of which words are anglicisms) and another half for privileging words that are French terms that can be found in a dictionary - not on Google. Terms that have been officially approved, one way or another, for use in written language. As translators, it is also part of our work to coin new terms if need be. Ultimately, a translator who translates into French needs to communicate a concept in French in a way that will allow the reader to have a clear understanding of it. A few years ago, someone coined the term courriel. I am really happy they did - I was tired of people using émel, a maimed version of e-mail.
Getting back to the KudoZ question we are discussing, I maintain that support is not French in this context. Not in Quebec, not in France. Yes, it is widely used, even in Quebec (I hear it almost every day on TV). But the fact that it is so widely used doesn't make it right. Just like parker and char aren't right, even if that is what most people say hereabout (including yours truly).
Was I wrong in posting a disagree to the answer suggesting support? Some say I was. But my disagree was about helping the asker to know that the term is not French and also leaving a note in KudoZ to that effect, so that those who eventually stumble upon that KudoZ question know what they are doing if they pick that translation. I disagreed - so I posted a disagree. Was Corinne right in disagreeing with my answer? Some say she was. But a disagree, to me, means that you entirely disagree, not in certain circumstances. Let's not forget that I posted my disagree first. Retaliation? Hmmm... And what about the people defending Corinne, who posted agrees to her answer AFTER I left my disagree? Two of them explicitly defend the word support in their agrees, saying that is what is most frequently used in France - never mind if the word itself is correct. Considering the circumstances, it doesn't look to me like they were simply defending a word on its own merits...
In any case, I would be a very dishonest translator if I were to accept money from a client to translate from English to Frenglish when they want me to translate into French. Wouldn't you agree? ▲ Collapse
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| Off topic (French and anglicisms) | Aug 19, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
The same thing also exists in France, except that, at least for some regions of France, there isn't such a difference between spoken and wirtten language (spoken language seems to have a tendency to be carried over into written language). It is for this reason that I have decided a few years ago not to translate from French French into English - sometimes, I just don't understand what they mean. For example, the word management in English has recently become management in French, and it is not uncommon to see this word written in company statutes, documents that are expected to be written in correct French, that would rather call for the words gestion or direction, two of the correct French equivalents for management. Now, try to find the "French" word management in a dictionary, in a form that is not labeled as anglicism or slang. I am sure it is harder for the French to distinguish between spoken and written language...
I am sorry for this off-topic comment but I couldn't help it.
I have seen several texts that talk about "Gestion et Management" [e.g. a company that deals in "gestion et management" of ***]. Is there a difference between the two?
| | | | Viktoria Gimbe
Canada
Local time: 05:06
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for the example | Aug 19, 2008 |
Ritu, I laughed out loud when I saw your post.
As you may already expect, the two terms are equivalent - except that one of them is in English, and therefore has no place in a French context. I think in the case you mention, it's just a question of bad writing. Reading the title "Gestion" on its own looks too simple to some, so writing "Gestion et XYZ" gives the impression (to some) that the writer actually has something to say. Never mind that both words mean the same thing... It's... See more Ritu, I laughed out loud when I saw your post.
As you may already expect, the two terms are equivalent - except that one of them is in English, and therefore has no place in a French context. I think in the case you mention, it's just a question of bad writing. Reading the title "Gestion" on its own looks too simple to some, so writing "Gestion et XYZ" gives the impression (to some) that the writer actually has something to say. Never mind that both words mean the same thing... It's just really unfortunate that they chose to use an English word in a French context, and redundant to boot.
By the way, a manager in French would be either directeur or gestionnaire, depending on the context - and not manager, as some translators seem to think.
[Edited at 2008-08-19 19:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | La gestion du management - seriously! | Aug 19, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Ritu, I laughed out loud when I saw your post.
As you may already expect, the two terms are equivalent - except that one of them is in English, and therefore has no place in a French context. I think in the case you mention, it's just a question of bad writing. Reading the title "Gestion" on its own looks too simple to some, so writing "Gestion et XYZ" gives the impression (to some) that the writer actually has something to say. Never mind that both words mean the same thing... It's just really unfortunate that they chose to use an English word in a French context, and redundant to boot.
By the way, a manager in French would be either directeur or gestionnaire, depending on the context - and not manager, as some translators seem to think.
[Edited at 2008-08-19 19:52]
Lately, I often come across section headings in procedures manuals etc. such as "LA GESTION DU MANAGEMENT".
Ain't it daft? I just say "MANAGEMENT". I think some of these big French companies have a department called "Le Management", but who knows?
Best wishes,
Jenny
| | | | | Specifying language variant | Aug 19, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Maybe we should propose a solution to ProZ staff. I am thinking that a field for language variants should be introduced in the KudoZ question form, so that the asker can make it clear which country/region they need a term for - and they can leave that field blank if they just want a generally accepted term (international French). This could help people stay a bit more civilized.
May be this is not a good idea. If some asker states, for example, Mexican Spanish, I would not answer since I speak the Spanish variant, but most of the expressions are exactly the same in all the Spanish variants. Thus, it is quite possible my answer be the right one, but the asker would never know.
I think it is the answerer who should say what is his/her language variant.
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| Stick to your guns! | Aug 19, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
... the term is not French... Two of them explicitly defend the word support in their agrees, saying that is what is most frequently used in France ...
I greatly admire the attempts of the French to keep the language from being overrun by anglicisms, and I wish the Germans would learn from them in this regard! The amount of so-called English that pollutes the source texts I often see makes these texts difficult or even impossible to understand, particularly because the authors have a poor grasp of how these words are used by native English speakers. If you are being criticized for refusing to give in to such linguistic laziness, then you have something to be proud of. French, German and other languages have many perfectly serviceable, often beautiful words that are ignored and displaced by garbage pidgin English. That is shameful.
| | | | Viktoria Gimbe
Canada
Local time: 05:06
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Jenny, your example is even more unfortunate than Ritu's | Aug 19, 2008 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Lately, I often come across section headings in procedures manuals etc. such as "LA GESTION DU MANAGEMENT".
I'm absolutely speechless...
I think some of these big French companies have a department called "Le Management", but who knows?
It may be. And if that is the case, then what does the so-called "Management" department's job consist of? Managing the management, of course!
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Dear Victoria,
I must say that I’m rather surprised at the fact that you take this “disagree” so badly. The asker didn’t say whether it was supposed to be written for an European audience, for a Canadian audience or for readers Worldwide. In this case, I usually assume that it's the latter case. The text therefore needs to be understandeable by all. You disagreed with an answer because this can’t be said in Canadian French. So far, so good. But as things happen, your answe... See more Dear Victoria,
I must say that I’m rather surprised at the fact that you take this “disagree” so badly. The asker didn’t say whether it was supposed to be written for an European audience, for a Canadian audience or for readers Worldwide. In this case, I usually assume that it's the latter case. The text therefore needs to be understandeable by all. You disagreed with an answer because this can’t be said in Canadian French. So far, so good. But as things happen, your answer in fact suggests something else in European French (private tutoring in IT) - as Bohy already told you above, so it can’t be used either.
The asker finally chose a third answer, that seems to be ok for everybody – isn’t that the best thing that could happen?
I just can’t understand how you can imagine that people disagree with you just because you display a flag of Quebec.
But since you are interested in what dictionaries say, I will now use as a reference the “Dictionnaire historique de la langue française” (historical dictionary of the French language) in 3 vol., published by Robert (a major brand of dictionaries).
I won’t write the definitions because it’s all in French obviously:
- “Soutien” is on page 3605, with various meanings, most of them about "holding something in place"
- “Support” is on page 3699 – it also has various meanings but in particular :
secours, assistance (help, assistance) ( from 1458)
action d’aider, de soutenir quelqu’un ( from 1538) et désigne une personne ou une chose qui sert d’aide, d’appui (a person or a thing that is helping, supporting)
Isn’t the latest definition perfectly fitting what a « technical support » department is doing? Isn’t late 15th/early 16th c. old enough not to call it a whateveriscism, that should always be rejected even when and where (France) it is used?
For example, the word management in English has recently become management in French, and it is not uncommon to see this word written in company statutes, documents that are expected to be written in correct French, that would rather call for the words gestion or direction, two of the correct French equivalents for management. Now, try to find the "French" word management in a dictionary, in a form that is not labeled as anglicism or slang.
It’s not that hard to find it. I'm still with the same historical dictionary. Ah yes, indeed, it’s labelled as an anglicism – borrowed in 1921, and since accepted by the Académie Française (the official body that’s ruling the French language in France). The word exists in English from the 16th century, at the time it was borrowed (argh!) from the Italian "maneggiare". But the verb “manager” was borrowed earlier still (1896).
I really don’t think that it’s perfectly equivalent to “gestion” or “direction” – “gestion” is usually mostly financial, “direction” is about a position while “management” is about the people who make the things work – or, turn around, to take it etymologically (whatever the position). Not that I like the word very much myself and, yes, it’s overused; but that doesn’t make it necessarily always incorrect.
I am sure it is harder for the French to distinguish between spoken and written language.
But that doesn't mean they should not distinguish between them. It is not because young drivers have a tendency to drink and drive that it is correct - or even accepted - to do so. And when a policeman drinks and drives - well, that makes me think of a translator translating into French using English words.
?!!
I’m speechless here.
Was I wrong in posting a disagree to the answer suggesting support? Some say I was.
Not at all – if it’s not used in Québec and makes the text not understandeable for Canadians, it should not be used if it is aimed at an International audience. Just as something that’s used in Quebec and cannot be understood in Europe should not be used either in this case.
Florence ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mark Nathan
France
Local time: 11:06
Member (2002)
French to English
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| Totally agree with Oddie | Aug 19, 2008 |
I think we should move on to the next question!
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Viktoria Gimbe
Canada
Local time: 05:06
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Let's stick to the facts, shall we? | Aug 20, 2008 |
Alright. Let's take a closer look.
My insatisfactions with the reactions in that particular KudoZ page are the following:
- A person posting a disagree to my otherwise perfectly acceptable answer, after I posted a disagree to that person's answer, politely explaining why I disagree
- The fact that certain people on that page - and in this thread - either have trouble to or deliberately choose not to make a distinction between widespread terms and officially accepted term... See more Alright. Let's take a closer look.
My insatisfactions with the reactions in that particular KudoZ page are the following:
- A person posting a disagree to my otherwise perfectly acceptable answer, after I posted a disagree to that person's answer, politely explaining why I disagree
- The fact that certain people on that page - and in this thread - either have trouble to or deliberately choose not to make a distinction between widespread terms and officially accepted terms
- The fact that I am being told that the term I proposed is not in use in France (which is easily disputable; see below), which suggests that I don't qualify to answer the question or to disagree with someone else's answer because I am not from France (as my profile picture attests) - never mind that the asker didn't specify a language variant. To me, this is like being told to go away...
So, the question is not whether my answer was right or not, whether Corinne's answer was right or not, what the right term is, what answer was ultimately chosen. The question is this: is this a way to handle such a situation? And a few more. Is this kind of behaviour helping the asker? Is this kind of behaviour going to contribute to the KOG? Is this a way to treat colleagues?
I would like to point out that it is not because the term is incorrect in Canadian French that I disagreed with Corinne's answer (I already explained this in another post above; support is used in the wrong context in Quebec as well). I also assumed, since the asker did not choose a language variant, that they were looking for a term that can be applied internationally (hence my own answer). It would be illogical and impertinent then to criticize other answers based on the language variant used, and the only acceptable argument to disagree would have been that the term is not understood internationally (which is not the case, as far as I'm concerned).
But just to put the KudoZ question itself to rest so we can concentrate on the behaviour issue, which is what I complained about in this thread, I did check IATE before I disagreed with Corinne's answer, and this is what I found (I only include level 3 terms or higher, that is, terms qualified as reliable):
technical support / soutien technique
Assistant Director - Operational and Technical Support / Sous-directeur - Soutien opérationnel et technique
scientific and technical support of a competitive nature / assistance scientifique et technique de nature compétitive
technical support measure / mesure d'appui technique
technical support branch / Service de soutien technique
Specific programme for research and technological development, including demonstration, to be carried out for the European Community, on the one hand, by the JRC and, on the other, by means of activities within the framework of a competitive approach and intended for scientific and technical support to Community policies / Programme spécifique de recherche, de développement technologique et de démonstration à exécuter pour la Communauté européenne, d'une part par le CCR et, d'autre part, au moyen d'activités s'inscrivant dans le cadre d'une approche concurrentielle, et destinées à un soutien scientifique et technique aux politiques communautaires
technical and tactical support / soutien technique et tactique
The count is as follows:
5 x soutien
1 x assistance
1 x appui
0 x support
This is based on the European Union's collection of terms, so it ain't no Google statistic.
I also take into consideration that language changes, whether we like it or not (I often disagree with the direction that language takes in time, but I guess I have to live with it). So, some terms used ages ago may be even more widespread today, just as some may have become archaic by now. This is why I would not use a historic dictionary, which has value only for the historical aspect of words (which by the way is fascinating) and not their practical aspect.
Also, consider that I did not disagree with all answers not based on the word soutien. Besides my own answer, there were five more. One answer besides mine used the word soutien, and only Corinne's answer used the word support. Hers was the only answer I posted a disagree to, and I posted nothing to the others - she posted three disagrees. So, I didn't disagree with assistance, even though it wouldn't have been my favorite. My answer may not have been any better than Corinne's - that is still left to prove or disprove. However, as I said, that isn't the question. Let's suppose that the asker did want an international term, as I assumed and as Florence seems to have assumed as well. In that case, a neutral would have been in order (for justification, see above for both support and soutien as used in Europe) but not a disagree, since Corinne's disagree seemed to address only one aspect of my answer and it wasn't judging all aspects of the answer. In other words, according to her, my answer was questionable (remember, the asker didn't specify a language variant), but not unacceptable. Then, why disagree? On the other hand, I said that support is not French in this context - I include all variants of French here, not just Canadian French. You never know, I may be wrong, but that isn't the question.
I just don't understand how an answer deserves a disagree just because the person having provided that answer doesn't live in France. I also don't understand why on earth would someone imagine that if no language variant was specificed, then it means that by default, the variant the asker is looking for is tied to France. It is that kind of arrogance I am having a lot of trouble with. And it's not the first time this occurs, nor the last, sadly.
P.S.: Just for the record, I tend to disagree with the word direction being used to designate a position. How would you explain terms like sous la direction de, assumer la direction de, direction artistique, all of which are terms that designate actions, not necessarily carried out by people whose official designation is director? And what would you call a manager in French? Manager?
[Edited at 2008-08-20 01:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Attending meetings, etc. ? | Aug 20, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
Lately, I often come across section headings in procedures manuals etc. such as "LA GESTION DU MANAGEMENT".
I'm absolutely speechless... I think some of these big French companies have a department called "Le Management", but who knows?
It may be. And if that is the case, then what does the so-called "Management" department's job consist of? Managing the management, of course!
"Le Management" spends its time attending internal and inter-departmental meetings, taking minutes of them and sending eachother memos about them. All this fascinating material is then sent to me to translate. C'est "le business", ne vois-tu pas?
(Sarcasm intended again) ...
Jenny.
| | | | | Agreeing/disagreeing | Aug 20, 2008 |
My insatisfactions with the reactions in that particular KudoZ page are the following:
When answering, you have to be prepared to the fact that not everybody is not going to agree with you. This is part of the game and people who are regularly answering are getting used to it.
In fact, I find it a very good thing when people dare disagreeing (if there is a well explained linguistic reason of course), because the questions/answers are also here "for the record" and are going to be used later as a reference. It's important to not only know where and when a term must be used, but also when and where it should not be.
- A person posting a disagree to my otherwise perfectly acceptable answer, after I posted a disagree to that person's answer, politely explaining why I disagree
Her answer was perfectly acceptable as much as yours was - it's just that in both cases it is preferrable to use it locally. She was polite too, and explained her reasons. This is perfectly symmetrical.
- The fact that I am being told that the term I proposed is not in use in France (which is easily disputable; see below),
It's not that it doesn't exist - it's that it suggests something else.
which suggests that I don't qualify to answer the question or to disagree with someone else's answer because I am not from France (as my profile picture attests) - never mind that the asker didn't specify a language variant. To me, this is like being told to go away...
?
It doesn't suggest this at all, there is no such meaning behind a "disagree".
If I'm offering a translation to a term (assuming that it's for an international audience) and that somebody tells me that it's not ok in another part of the Globe, I'll be grateful, not angry. What else?
The question is this: is this a way to handle such a situation? And a few more. Is this kind of behaviour helping the asker? Is this kind of behaviour going to contribute to the KOG? Is this a way to treat colleagues?
Clearly, yes to all three questions.
If a translation is offered, the best thing to do is to find out when and where it should be used, when and where it should not. It's not with unconditionnally agreeing that this will be achieved.
A way to treat colleagues? It's just about answers and words, not about "treating colleagues".
It would be illogical and impertinent then to criticize other answers based on the language variant used, and the only acceptable argument to disagree would have been that the term is not understood internationally
On the contrary, it is perfectly logical.
You know that it can't work in Canada so you disagree. She knows that it can't work in France so she disagrees. That's perfectly fine for me and that's the best way to help the asker find a term that will be ok for everyone. As long as everything is clearly stated and explained.
But just to put the KudoZ question itself to rest so we can concentrate on the behaviour issue, which is what I complained about in this thread, I did check IATE before I disagreed with Corinne's answer, and this is what I found ...
This is based on the European Union's collection of terms, so it ain't no Google statistic.
You don't really think that IATE is a collection of "officially accepted terms" in France/Europe, do you? I don't know about the other languages - but as far as French is concerned it's just an internal glossary - it is very useful but I don't think that a frequency test in it could be more reliable than it would be in Google or in the KOG - or in anything else for that matter.
There's just one "officially accepted terms" list in France, that's the Dictionnaire de l'Académie Française - some parts are online here http://www.academie-francaise.fr/dictionnaire/ (unfortunately, not everything is online yet - the 9th edition is being slowly published and they are currently reaching the letter "O" - the previous versions are not online). There is also an Academy in Belgium http://www.arllfb.be - I just don't know if they have a separate words list.
For a list of "officially accepted" terminology in France, that's the one and only source.
This is why I would not use a historic dictionary, which has value only for the historical aspect of words (which by the way is fascinating) and not their practical aspect.
The dictionary I quoted only gives words that are currently used, but gives more information about their etymology and how they appeared. It doesn't give words that are not used any more. For this I would have quoted the Godefroy, for instance. There are many other dictionaries, this is just the one that I can reach without moving from my chair
In that case, a neutral would have been in order
It's at the peer's choice, as long as there is a linguistic justification - it was the case with your "disagree" and with hers.
Besides, we have rule "3.7 - Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed." So I don't even think that we should be discussing this particular point here.
P.S.: Just for the record, I tend to disagree with the word direction being used to designate a position. How would you explain terms like sous la direction de, assumer la direction de, direction artistique, all of which are terms that designate actions, not necessarily carried out by people whose official designation is director? And what would you call a manager in French? Manager?
It's a different context. As I said, I don't really like the term, but in some cases it can be useful. Anyway, like it or not, it's accepted by the Académie Française.
[Edited at 2008-08-20 13:33]
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