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KudoZ: waiting 24 hours to award points is (not always) a good idea
Thread poster: xxxIanW
xxxIanW
Local time: 18:49
German to English
+ ...
Aug 12, 2003

Although I am very enthusiastic about most of the recent changes to KudoZ, I do not entirely agree that waiting 24 hours to award points is always a good idea.

Certainly, it has its advantages, in that the asker is discouraged from awarding points to the first suggestion, only to have it proven wrong by a barrage of disagrees from peers.

However, I recently asked a couple of questions for translations which were to be delivered later that same day. Five or six hours later, having chosen one of the three or four excellent suggestions on offer, I awarded the points, to avoid other colleagues spending any other time unnecessarily. Even if the best suggestion of all had come in after that, the translation had already been delivered and I'd have felt that I was wasting my colleagues' time.

At least on the busy language pairs, I think that this should be reduced to four or five hours - or replaced with a reminder to wait for a sufficient number of suggestions and peer comments. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 13:49
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
It is for the benefit of the glossary Aug 12, 2003

Your desire to not further waste time of other translator after your delivery is admirable, but any successive good solution may be beneficial for all colleagues consulting the archives in the future.

Also, the 24 hours will give a fair chance to all participants, even those living at the opposite end of the globe, to contribute their opinion and suggestions.

I find the 24 hours window extremely important (I would make it compulsory, not only adviced) for another reasons: it is an attempt to steer the KudoZ system towards higher quality answers, more accurate and better documented, taking away the pressure of providing a quick answer before the questions are closed.

Gianfranco


[Edited at 2003-08-12 10:47]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:49
English to German
+ ...
24 hours is an appropriate suggestion Aug 12, 2003

Hi Ian,
Obviously, 24 hours is a suggestion - the system allows you to grade more quickly (although personally, I don't think that is necessary).

Certainly, it has its advantages, in that the asker is discouraged from awarding points to the first suggestion, only to have it proven wrong by a barrage of disagrees from peers.

Quite. The 24-hour recommendation was put in after extensive discussion, and in view of the all-too-rapid grading by numerous users, mostly by non-members.


However, I recently asked a couple of questions for translations which were to be delivered later that same day. Five or six hours later, having chosen one of the three or four excellent suggestions on offer, I awarded the points, to avoid other colleagues spending any other time unnecessarily. Even if the best suggestion of all had come in after that, the translation had already been delivered and I'd have felt that I was wasting my colleagues' time.

Not at all! Bear in mind that although you had the immediate benefit for your urgent job, others will be able to use that entry. So although the urgency would no longer have been there, no time would have been wasted either.

At least on the busy language pairs, I think that this should be reduced to four or five hours - or replaced with a reminder to wait for a sufficient number of suggestions and peer comments.

I like the current situation, where there's a recommendation that is not enforced by the system.

Best regards, Ralf


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 18:49
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
A client at the other end of the globe Aug 12, 2003

can get back to you in 24h. if the reading is controversial. At any rate, it's an orientative guideline.

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Nikita Kobrin  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 19:49
Member (2010)
English to Russian
+ ...
Waiting 24 hours to award points is ALWAYS a good idea Aug 12, 2003

Ian Winick wrote:

Five or six hours later, having chosen one of the three or four excellent suggestions on offer, I awarded the points, to avoid other colleagues spending any other time unnecessarily. Even if the best suggestion of all had come in after that, the translation had already been delivered and I'd have felt that I was wasting my colleagues' time.



Dear Ian,

I do believe that attempts to find the best translation option can never be called "wasting of time" and are always rewarding (even if the translation job you were doing had already been delivered):

- you can contact the customer and suggest a better solution (I do it sometimes)

- you will be able to use it in your future projects

- and the last but not the least: don't forget that only the best possible translations should be entered into KudoZ Glossaries

Regards,
Nikita Kobrin

[Edited at 2003-08-12 11:53]


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Claudia Krysztofiak  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:49
English to German
+ ...
It's good that the time is only recommended. Aug 12, 2003


Even if the best suggestion of all had come in after that, the translation had already been delivered and I'd have felt that I was wasting my colleagues' time.


I had the very same feeling and I had the opportunity to discuss this with some colleagues, who did not share my opinion. Now I think: It actually is up to yourself if you think you can still come up with a better translation after a couple of relevant suggestions have been made. Then it is good to try. People know, that the question might only still be open for giving others a chance and not because the answers did not fit.
And still the time is only recommended. You can act differently if you have good reasons.


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xxxIanW
Local time: 18:49
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not "always" a good idea to wait 24 hours Aug 12, 2003

Many KudoZ questions are slogans, oblique sentences or misprints which never actually get recorded in a glossary. Personally, given the kind of texts which I translate, I tend to ask quite a few strange phrases, which I would not enter into the glossary because the chances of them reappearing are practically non-existent. Otherwise I fully agree with the notion of waiting for the sake of the glossary.

A few days ago, I posted the question “Da wird die Kür schnell zur Pflicht”, because I didn’t understand what was meant exactly. There were a few answers, including one which told me all I needed to know – I made the necessary changes to my otherwise complete translation and sent it off, having awarded the points to my colleague.

If I hadn’t “closed” the question, and another colleague had then spent time and effort coming up with another version, only to find out that the translation had already been delivered and that I had no intention of using it, he/she would be irritated, and understandably so. Out of respect for everyone else’s time and good nature, I would always close the question so that no-one else’s time is spent unnecessarily. I have experienced this myself first-hand and find it shows a lack of manners.

True, this is only a suggested period of time, but there are often comments about “ignoring the rules”, so I wanted to make the case that, in certain circumstances, it makes more sense to bend the rules.


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Sheila Hardie  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 18:49
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
You took the words right out of my mouth:-) Aug 12, 2003

I agree with what Nikita said 100%.

People are unlikely (or less likely) to add comments or new answers after the question has been graded, even if the wrong answer has been chosen - and this is a great pity. In my opinion, it's not just the asker who stands to benefit from asking a question, those who answer and those who use the glossary do too.
I hope the 24-hour recommended grading period stays put - it's a great idea:-)

Sheila

Nikita Kobrin wrote:

Dear Ian,

I do believe that attempts to find the best translation option can never be called "wasting of time" and are always rewarding (even if the translation job you were doing had already been delivered):

- you can contact the customer and suggest a better solution (I do it sometimes)

- you will be able to use it in your future projects

- and the last but not the least: don't forget that only the best possible translations should be entered into KudoZ Glossaries

Regards,
Nikita Kobrin

[Edited at 2003-08-12 11:53]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:49
English to German
+ ...
Your job is only part of the story Aug 12, 2003

Hi again, Ian,
Many KudoZ questions are slogans, oblique sentences or misprints which never actually get recorded in a glossary.

Probably not as a glossary entry, but still visible when someone searches the KudoZ Open Glossary.

A few days ago, I posted the question “Da wird die Kür schnell zur Pflicht”, because I didn’t understand what was meant exactly. There were a few answers, including one which told me all I needed to know – I made the necessary changes to my otherwise complete translation and sent it off, having awarded the points to my colleague.

If I hadn’t “closed” the question, and another colleague had then spent time and effort coming up with another version, only to find out that the translation had already been delivered and that I had no intention of using it, he/she would be irritated, and understandably so.

My apologies for being blunt (just for the sake of clarification): the job you were about to deliver is only relevant to yourself - whether or not you managed to deliver on time may be important to know for someone helping you, but it's completely irrelevant for someone searching the site two months later. Still, that user might benefit from the discussion around this concept.

Best regards, Ralf


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Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:49
Chinese to English
+ ...
ALWAYS a good idea IMHO Aug 12, 2003

We have many problems in ChineseEnglish with early closures, particularly in combinations where the answerers are not native speakers of the language into which they are answering (if that makes sense!)

The 24 hour rule should be enforced by the software setup. It harms no one to wait. Translators are professionals. We all know that jobs have to go out quickly, and I don't think that anyone thinks an answer given 6 days later will be included in the job that the asker posted about! But there is more to translation than just getting a single job out, as others have pointed out. Terminology research is an important part of our work, if we are to be professional about what we do.

If a translator sees that a long period of time has elapsed, and that the answer is not likely to go out in the job, then if that bothers him/her, he/she is free not to spend time answering. But those who are in KudoZ for the love of knowledge, and who want to make our profession more professional and respected for accuracy, may choose to answer for pleasure or professional considerations.

Now I would like to know what to do about egregiously incorrect answers which are selected by the asker, who obviously didn't know the word in the first place or s/he wouldn't have asked...??


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Nikita Kobrin  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 19:49
Member (2010)
English to Russian
+ ...
It's much more frustrating to find a closed question after spending time for terminology research Aug 12, 2003

Terry L. Thatcher, Ph.D. wrote:

The 24 hour rule should be enforced by the software setup. It harms no one to wait. Terminology research is an important part of our work, if we are to be professional about what we do.

those who are in KudoZ for the love of knowledge, and who want to make our profession more professional and respected for accuracy, may choose to answer for pleasure or professional considerations.



Exactly Terry!

It's much more frustrating to find a closed question (after spending considerable time for terminology research) and nobody around (except future generations) even to tell you "thanx" for the efforts.

And please don't tell me that there's no sense in trying to answer questions when you need to make some terminology research, it depends: sometimes (not always) the more I know the subject area in question the longer it takes me to find that ONE and ONLY word that fits the context best of all. That's because one usually tries to be a perfectionist in key areas of his/her expertise.

NK


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Andrea Ali  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:49
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Very good idea to wait unless... Aug 12, 2003

Hi, Ian!

A few days ago, I asked a question and in less than five minutes I was given three answers. The three of them were exactly the same. In that particular case, I did not wait any longer and graded the answer.
Otherwise, I wait for the 24 hours to go by. Maybe if you have already chosen an answer, you could add a note so that others "do not waste their time" (really very considerate of you), but on the whole, I think it is a good idea to wait 24 hours before grading an answer.

Cheers!
Andrea


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Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:49
Chinese to English
+ ...
Sometimes (believe it or not)... Aug 12, 2003

those three answers can be identically...wrong! And in any event, there's nothing to stop you from using the first answer if you like, while waiting to grade for the good of the site and the community. Especially in very specialized technical fields, even a conscientious person with good dictionaries or Net search techniques may not get the exact term, while the expert in that area with 30 years of experience, who unfortunately only logs on three hours later, is shut out. And in some combinations, we have people who have NO CLUE chiming in with things that are so preposterous as to be unconstructive (example: recently somebody answered that a "ringer" on a crane was something that made a noise like a bell!)

Maybe I'm too much of a stickler for absolute accuracy in terminology, but I haven't seen where it's hurt my reputation as a translator or interpreter very much to date.

[Edited at 2003-08-12 18:25]


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Paula Vaz-Carreiro  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:49
Portuguese
+ ...
wait 24 hours before grading should be inforced by the software IMHO Aug 12, 2003

Dear All

I agree with all the arguments for the 24-hour rule, and would like to add to this discussion, my own experiences and feelings on the subject.

Having just spent 20 minutes painstakingly justifying my suggestion because, in my opinion, none of the other (several) answers captured the meaning. Then I post only to find out that the answer has already been graded. I look for the time and see that s/he graded it after less than five hours. Moreover, almost all the other suggestion had no more than an emoticon for explanation.

I assume that a dedicated translator will first try to find the translation by themselves and then ask if they need confirmation or further help. I think this is how people who really love translation should work.

So, from me at least, the last suggestion to come in will always get the points even if it is the same as all the others, so long as there is a convincing explanation/reference. A simple explanation with maybe a dictionary reference or a few web address, or personal experience, is all I want from anyone.
I don’t want emoticons or full stops for answers and I don’t want metres of Google results pages copied over either.

The grading rules of ProZ say that the points should go to the MOST HELPFUL answer with references, not the fastest. It also asks us not to grade questions before 24 hours have passed and I am going to stick to that on my questions so everybody may have a chance to propose and justify their answers. Even if I have already finished the translation and sent it off, if the last answer to come in is the best I will give it the points.

I am still going to go on giving explained answers even if that means not being the first with the answer. If no one rewards me for it, I may well answer fewer questions but it goes against the grain to give incomplete answers so I shall not do it.

This is why I think the software should stop people grading before 24 hours (at least) have passed, because I really believe this would make for better quality answers.

Best regards to you all
Paula


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Andrea Ali  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:49
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Absolutely right, Terry Aug 12, 2003

Terry L. Thatcher, Ph.D. wrote:

those three answers can be identically...wrong! And in any event, there's nothing to stop you from using the first answer if you like, while waiting to grade for the good of the site and the community. Especially in very specialized technical fields, even a conscientious person with good dictionaries or Net search techniques may not get the exact term, while the expert in that area with 30 years of experience, who unfortunately only logs on three hours later, is shut out. And in some combinations, we have people who have NO CLUE chiming in with things that are so preposterous as to be unconstructive (example: recently somebody answered that a "ringer" on a crane was something that made a noise like a bell!)

Maybe I'm too much of a stickler for absolute accuracy in terminology, but I haven't seen where it's hurt my reputation as a translator or interpreter very much to date.

[Edited at 2003-08-12 18:25]


I think this is not the case (I hope so!!!)

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/496252

But, of course, there are cases in which the most accurate answer arrives after a few hours. It also happened to me.
I even got a couple of private emails, after grading an answer, telling me to consider another option because the one I had chosen was not "the most accurate". Yes, there are excellent pros and human beings around here!!!


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