Questions marked as non-pro, are they so classified after a proper application of mind?
Narasimhan Raghavan India Local time: 16:49 Member (2007) English to Tamil + ...
Oct 10, 2009
There is this Tamil translator, who has asked 10 questions. Nine of them he has classified as Non-pro, that is to say easy. If they are so easy, why should he ask them in the first place? Answering such questions is just a waste of time as the KudoZ points that come out of them do not contribute to improving one's ranking.
I just no longer even bother to click the question from my gmail inbox, if I see the word non-pro. It is a pity as some of the questions are really difficult.
What gets my goat in a more pronounced manner is the action of some non-askers. Suppose a question is presented as Pro. I take a lot of trouble to find the answer and give it. Then some good soul comes along and votes it as Non-pro. I feel that I have been had. Had it been classified as non-pro in the first instance itself, I would not have wasted my time. What do these people get out of this action? This has happened to some of the questions I answered in the German>English, French>English pairs as well as Hindi>English pairs.
If however a non-pro question is voted as pro, it might be welcome. But that is beside the point.
Am I the only one to think in this manner or there are more sharing my view?
My points are 2 fold.
1. An asker classifying his question as non-pro has no business to ask that question in the first place. If the question were so easy, why should he ask it in the first place?
2. What do the persons voting a pro-question as non-pro question think they are doing? To the extent I saw, these after-the-fact voters did not bother to answer the question itself. If I were paranoid, I would say they are spoil-sports out to spoil someone's day.
Regards,
N. Raghavan
[Edited at 2009-10-10 02:59 GMT]
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Henry Hinds United States Local time: 04:19 English to Spanish + ...
You're Right
Oct 10, 2009
Proper application of mind? Not hardly.
I think the Pro and Non-Pro bit is pure nonsense. True, once in a great while someone does post a very simple question, but so what? Then it's a freebie for the first one that gets there. Big deal. There should be no distinction. Besides, the criterion for many Non-Pros is that they were posted by a non-member, yet they can be and usually are quite difficult.
I have a special privilege where I can unilaterally change Non-Pro to Pro and I do so whenever it is pertinent. Maybe you can get that too, just ask.
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Yasutomo Kanazawa Japan Local time: 20:19 Member (2005) English to Japanese + ...
Second that
Oct 10, 2009
Henry Hinds wrote:
Proper application of mind? Not hardly.
I think the Pro and Non-Pro bit is pure nonsense. True, once in a great while someone does post a very simple question, but so what? Then it's a freebie for the first one that gets there. Big deal. There should be no distinction. Besides, the criterion for many Non-Pros is that they were posted by a non-member, yet they can be and usually are quite difficult.
I have a special privilege where I can unilaterally change Non-Pro to Pro and I do so whenever it is pertinent. Maybe you can get that too, just ask.
Yes, I agree with the distinction between Pro and Non-pro is pure nonsense. And I know people who literally abuse this system, changing Pro questions to Non-pro or voting for Non-pro. Maybe to those people, the question asked was a 6th grader level, but for the asker and the answerer, that might not be the case.
I remember once reading one of the forums here regarding KudoZ, and one of the abusers I know mentioned that the quality of KudoZ questions has deteriorated; that's why that person gave up on KudoZ. But the funny part is that this person cannot completely stay away from KudoZ, since I see this person voting for Non-pro for Pro level questions. According to this person's posting, s/he says that almost all of the questions asked can either be found in the dictionary or by Google search. And the asker is lazy enough not to do any research.
But even dictionaries and Gooogle contain mistakes or false information, and there are questions which cannot be solved using the above two methods.
And as Narasimhan mentioned, it is very disappointing to know later that the question you answered has been changed from Pro to Non-pro.
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Teresa Borges Belgium Local time: 12:19 Member (2007) German to Portuguese + ...
No, you are not the only one...
Oct 10, 2009
I do share your opinion. I have never changed a Pro question into Non-Pro, but I have quite often done the opposite (without answering it). This distinction makes no sense in a professional community...
Regards,
Teresa
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Birgit Richter Germany Local time: 12:19 Member (2006) English to German + ...
Kudoz - Pro - Non-Pro
Oct 10, 2009
"This distinction makes no sense in a professional community..."
I am wondering, too,
If a professional translator finds they should try Kudoz to help them with a terminology question for a professional translation, then their terminology question is pro or is it not?
So, for me, what determines whether the question should be classed as pro or non-pro is whether or not the asker, the professional translator, needs the answer for a real translation job.
The non-pro questions might be intended for student members who may need the answer for a marked assignment or for home work, i.e. not for a professional translation ??
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Sheila Wilson France Local time: 12:19 Member (2007) French to English + ...
glossary vs non-glossary ?
Oct 10, 2009
The only worthwhile distinction I can see is whether the community feels that the resulting discussion would be useful for future ProZ users.
If it's something that could be found in a dictionary, or it's already in the glossary, or it's specific to the context and of no general value, it has no place in the glossary. However, if it's something that promotes a lot of discussion in the form of "yes, but ...", then it's probably worth putting it in the glossary, even if it's something that on the face of it appears simple. We all know that there are words/expressions that are the devil of a job to translate, even though we understand them.
That's the only distinction I see as being useful. Marking Pro/NonPro, then leaving it up to the asker/answerer to decide whether or not to make a glossary entry is not the best way to build the glossary, IMO.
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PRAKAASH India Local time: 16:49 Member (2007) English to Hindi + ...
another aspect of Pro and Non-Pro
Oct 10, 2009
Many a times, it's difficult for a translator to translate a simple phrase or sentence in the best possible translated manner. Mere change of words can be done even by 'google translate' stuffs, but a professional translator applies his translation and linguistic skills to make the translation easily understandable by a common native guy of target language, which makes the translation best. So, if the translation is translated in the best possible manner, it should be termed as the best and should be awarded points irrespective of 'pro' or 'non pro' tag of the question.
So, one shouldn't ignore even non-pro questions, simply a suggestion! If we've time, we should go for it as I feel that answers in that category is also noticed by good linguists and translators of proz community.
[Edited at 2009-10-10 09:24 GMT]
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Russell Jones United Kingdom Local time: 11:19 Member (2004) Italian to English
MODERATOR
Simple terms
Oct 10, 2009
Sheila Wilson wrote:
if it's something that promotes a lot of discussion in the form of "yes, but ...", then it's probably worth putting it in the glossary, even if it's something that on the face of it appears simple.
That is certainly the approach I take to the issue.
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Paul Cohen Greenland Local time: 08:19 German to English + ...
The big free translation booth on Main St.
Oct 10, 2009
This topic comes up time and again. And it will continue to come up again and again.
As I understand it, the distinction between pro and non-pro was made years ago to stop people from inundating KudoZ with questions like "How do you say 'I love you' in Greenlandic?"
Are we ready to open the floodgates and say that all questions are pro?
If only professional translators ask questions, then of course all questions are pro. We need to keep in mind, however, that not all askers are professional translators. In fact, many answerers are not professional translators, either, but that's another thorny issue.
Essentially, ProZ has set up a big booth on Main St. offering free terminology translations to anyone who happens to walk by. After all, the KudoZ term help network is publicly available. This generates enormous traffic for the site.
So, we have this big booth and we're offering free help for the translation of "tough" terms. Talk about a tough term to define! If I don't speak Greenlandic, "I love you" would be a tough term indeed. The entire language is tough!
No wonder the distinction between pro and non-pro continues to be a problem! It's clear that this quandary is not simply going to simply disappear.
Given the sheer size and visibility of this site, perhaps ProZ should consider NOT leaving KudoZ open to anyone who walks in off the street. That would, in my opinion, be an important prerequisite step towards doing away with the distinction between the two types of questions. After all, KudoZ is not just about people helping people -- a very naïve sentiment if I do say so myself -- it's also about people helping themselves to loads of pointZ that will help them climb higher in the directory. That is reality, and that's the main reason why "non-pro" questions fail to generate much interest among answerers. I think Narasimhan summed it up nicely.
:
Answering such questions is just a waste of time as the KudoZ points that come out of them do not contribute to improving one's ranking.
By the way, for those of you who are wondering, "asavakkit" means "I love you" in Greenlandic.
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B D Finch France Local time: 12:19 Member (2006) French to English + ...
A different point of view
Oct 10, 2009
Narasimhan Raghavan wrote:
Answering such questions is just a waste of time as the KudoZ points that come out of them do not contribute to improving one's ranking.
I just no longer even bother to click the question from my gmail inbox, if I see the word non-pro. It is a pity as some of the questions are really difficult.
What gets my goat in a more pronounced manner is the action of some non-askers. Suppose a question is presented as Pro. I take a lot of trouble to find the answer and give it. Then some good soul comes along and votes it as Non-pro. I feel that I have been had. Had it been classified as non-pro in the first instance itself, I would not have wasted my time.
I really disagree with the idea that one is wasting one's time with KudoZ if the answer doesn't improve one's ranking. I also have to admit to having voted questions as Non-Pro, including ones that I have answered myself. I answer questions to help other translators and the community and also for reasons that are probably similar to those that make some people do crossword puzzles. Ranking is a useful spin off. However, when I see a KudoZ question that I could easily and confidently answer, posted by an Asker who I don't want to help, e.g. because I think they are incompetent, I don't bother answering it even if it would be points for old rope. On the other hand, if somebody provides a better answer than my one, I have learned something.
Voting a question as Non-Pro seems like a useful way of avoiding cluttering the KOG with trivia, but also a way of discouraging groups of people who are just trying to win points from posting silly questions for their friends to answer. One could, if one accepts Narasimhan's argument, equally suggest that there is no point in answering "not for points" questions.
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Robert Forstag United States Local time: 06:19 Member (2003) Spanish to English + ...
I agree with B.D. that a distinction should be maintained...
Oct 11, 2009
...because, if not, the floodgates will indeed open, as Paul suggests. At the same time, Paul's suggestion for restricting access to Kudoz (i.e., more than it already is) is a non-starter, precisely because Kudoz generates so much traffic to the site.
The current criterion for distinguishing between Pro and non-Pro is too vague to be useful. A better criterion for determining what is non-Pro might be something along the lines of "a single word used in everyday speech, the translation of which is not particularly sensitive to context." This certainly can be improved upon, but it is a start.
I agree with Henry that Narasimhan should apply for privileges so that he can change questions to Pro that clearly belong in that category. Failing that, he can ask the moderator of the forums where the problems are occurring to make the change.
I think it would also improve the professionalism of Kudoz if professional translators voluntarily refrained from providing translations to terms that could be found in any general bilingual dictionary. After all, there really is no particular virtue in boosting one's directory rank by making haste to supply information that can be very easily found otherwise....
[Edited at 2009-10-11 04:15 GMT]
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philgoddard United States Local time: 05:19 German to English + ...
I think it's an important distinction.
Oct 11, 2009
I often vote to reclassify questions as non-pro because I feel the asker is being lazy. Instead of making the effort to look the term up in a dictionary, or research it on the internet, they're asking other people to do the work for them. Posting a question should be a last resort, not a first port of call.
The criterion for a non-pro question is that it's easily answerable by a person who speaks the two languages concerned but is not a professional translator. I feel that a lot of questions fall into this category.
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Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 12:19 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ...
One idea
Oct 11, 2009
Unless I'm mistaken, non-pro questions are not added to the glossaries automatically. These are questions that professionals are likely to know the answer to, so they don't go into the glossaries. So I can see why there is a distinction.
Perhaps the way users are asked "pro or non-pro" should be changed. At present, the asker is given two options:
* PRO - question for professional translators or specialists
* Non-PRO - a question for language learners
Perhaps this section should be changed to give the asker five tickboxes (so that people can choose more than one option):
* I'm still at school
* I'm still learning this language
* I'm just interested to know the answer
* I'm a translation student
* I'm a professional translator
Then the system can decide, based on which options were chosen, whether to mark the question as pro or non-pro.
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Narasimhan Raghavan India Local time: 16:49 Member (2007) English to Tamil + ...
TOPIC STARTER
My main objection
Oct 11, 2009
It is concerned with a third party coming along and voting a question as non-pro once the asker had marked a it as pro and somebody has taken the trouble to answer it.
As for the Tamil translator I mentioned in the beginning, at least I could avoid touching his question.
But the case of the originally Pr-marked question being voted non-pro subsequently is quite irritating.
Regards,
N. Raghavan
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Yasutomo Kanazawa Japan Local time: 20:19 Member (2005) English to Japanese + ...
Yes, true
Oct 11, 2009
Narasimhan Raghavan wrote:
But the case of the originally Pr-marked question being voted non-pro subsequently is quite irritating.
Regards,
N. Raghavan
And like I wrote above, there are abusers who intentionally vote or change to Non-pro questions out of reasons for maintaining one's directory ranking in that particular pair, discrimination (a non-native speaker answering a question), or simply the voter doesn't like the answerer.
Yes indeed, it is very irritating and sad.
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