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Debate on rule to disallow explicit questions in KudoZ (staff: 'closing without a change in policy')
Thread poster: xxxCHENOUMI
xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
Jan 13, 2004

Re: http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=606054

I usually ignore this type of question and don't bother to provide any translation. I even squashed a spicier one last year.
Given the recurrence of similar requests,
could we have a KudoZ rule that prohibits them upfront?

It would serve as a clear deterrent for askers who seem to have a misconception about the 'Translation Workplace'.
Please.
Thank you.


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Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 15:49
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
Thank you Sandra Jan 13, 2004

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

The rules already forbid this kind of question, I have squashed them under the reason "Adult nature and/or profane".

Claudia


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I am not sure the rule does exist. Jan 13, 2004

If it did, the asker wouldn't ask it at all. What we have in place now is the 'squashing' option that allows members and/or moderators to squash them after they have been asked.

I was thinking of a 'Red Flag'-like instruction similar to the 'Wait 24 hours before grading' that would alert askers to the issue.

4 mins confidence:
CHENOUMI
Hello Sandera

I made an exception for you once here > http://www.proz.com/kudoz/606053, but I'm not going to start translating vulgarities for you.
Please refrain from asking this type of question.
Thank you.

agree Yuri Smirnov 1 hr 39 mins
> Thank you Yuri !


[Edited at 2004-01-15 00:05]


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xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 21:49
French to English
+ ...
Fascinating.... Jan 14, 2004

Now that the question has been squashed, for those of us that missed it, this exchange is as clear as mud......

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EKM
Sweden
Local time: 21:49
English to Swedish
+ ...
You have a point Jan 14, 2004

I believe it wouldn't hurt to have an extra instruction alerting askers to the issue IF it is to be imposed continously, but some questions would still slip through.

I realize many people are actually offended by profane and sex-related language, but I do not personally belong to those who are, and I wish we could scrap the censorship since sexuality in all the ways it is described, politely or otherwise, is part of the human experience and need for expression, and should not be suppressed. Profane language, unless it is clearly directed at someone as an insult, is not that big an issue in my view.

Swearing is also part of language, and furthermore, it is very close to the cultural "core" of any language, as is slang, because it is a good indicator of cultural taboos and such. I find these issues fascinating and enriching, but there is probably no way I can convince the people who do not agree with me, so maybe I should just let it go at that.


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Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 15:49
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
Sorry CMJ Jan 14, 2004

CMJ_Trans wrote:Now that the question has been squashed, for those of us that missed it, this exchange is as clear as mud......


Sorry, I thought that the questions should be squashed, but didn’t think of those who would read this with no more reference.

I absolutely agree with Mårten (“is part of the human experience and need for expression, and should not be suppressed”), but we all can notice when the question is due to a need in translation or something else.

I do think that this kind of questions, with this context, are suppressed in all the language pairs. I wish that the difference between this ans what could be needed for a translation is also clear for some other people.

Here they are, with Chenoumi's answer:

http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=606054
you're a hoe
to have sex in vulgar terms

Answer:
I made an exception for you once here > http://www.proz.com/kudoz/606053, but I'm not going to start translating vulgarities for you.
Please refrain from asking this type of question.
Thank you.
***************
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/606053
bitch

II know it's vulgar but i need to know sry....

answer
bouzen/piten
**Vulgar...

****************


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 16:49
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Genuine queries v. time-wasters Jan 14, 2004

I agree, in general terms, with the principles enunciated by Mårten, but we are facing here a different issue.

Some people appear to draw amusement from sending vulgarities to the KudoZ area. These people are NOT members but they use the site anonymously, through opportunistic email addresses, and have no real linguistic problem or issue.

A different case is when a translator finds a term, colloquial and/or possibly "vulgar", that needs explanations and clarification.

We have to decide what is a legitimate question involving a word having a sexual connotation and when it is just one of those time-wasters.

This is why is correct to squash some of these questions and forget them, according to the moderators' judgement. It is not censorship or pruderie, just one of the many discretionary tasks that we perform routinely to make the site better.

Gianfranco



[Edited at 2004-01-14 19:55]


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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 22:49
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
This is a very complicated issue Jan 14, 2004

Everyone who have watched Westerns/American movies knows what language there is used. And it is very humorous to, e.g., watch such a movie with Latvian subtitling, when character says "#$%^", or "f^&&* you" and in subtitling it is translated as a phrase from a vocabulary of girls Sunday school.
BTW, if I would be asked to translate "hoe" I, too would have ask help via KudoZ. Anyway, it should be differentiated if the asker is just curious how the obscenity will sound in another language or is it necessary for a work...


Uldis
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=606054
you're a hoe
to have sex in vulgar terms

Answer:
I made an exception for you once here > http://www.proz.com/kudoz/606053, but I'm not going to start translating vulgarities for you.



[Edited at 2004-01-14 15:21]


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xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 21:49
French to English
+ ...
Just a thought... Jan 14, 2004

Having seen the exchange, I wonder if the asker simply hadn't recognised the word for what it was, given the spelling! Maybe the only way to respond in such cases is to say: the word you are looking for must be "X". You will find it in the average dictionary....

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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 21:49
English to French
+ ...
Agree Jan 14, 2004

Mårten Dalhed wrote:

II realize many people are actually offended by profane and sex-related language, but I do not personally belong to those who are, and I wish we could scrap the censorship since sexuality in all the ways it is described, politely or otherwise, is part of the human experience and need for expression, and should not be suppressed. Profane language, unless it is clearly directed at someone as an insult, is not that big an issue in my view.



If we start this way, next it will be no questions about guns for the anti, about nucleair for the pacifistes, and sea about the ones who prefer the mountain.

There are many translators on the site who are not bothered by sexual questions, as for the others, they just do not read and do not answer.


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Alexander Chisholm  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:49
Italian to English
+ ...
Difficult to legislate. Jan 14, 2004

I was once in a situation where,in the company where I was working in Italy, we had intrcepted an intrnal communication from one of our clients and it was clear that they were upset with us, and the MD of the client company had used some "strong language" in reference to our company. My boss called me into his office for a "frank, warts and all" translation of the message, which was a touch embarasing as Ihad just started working there.

However, my point is though, that for me, a native English speaker, i knew exactly how angry the MD of the other company must have ben with us. To a native Italian on the other hand, even one with a pretty good standard of English (and there were plenty of people fitting that dscription working for the company at the time) it just was not clear at all.

Linguistically, the above may sound a bit trivial. But in real busines terms, it was a problem of enormous proportions as the company were about to lose one of their largest clients.


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 21:49
English to French
+ ...
The rules Jan 14, 2004

Claudia Iglesias wrote:

Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

The rules already forbid this kind of question, I have squashed them under the reason "Adult nature and/or profane".

Claudia


There is also a rule forbidding people to copy unauthorized material from books or articles. It happens a lot on the forums.

Why are the few ones complaining making the rules for all the others ?


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Richard Benham  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:49
German to English
+ ...
What is this site coming to? Jan 14, 2004

This whole issue makes me sick.

There are plenty of reasons why a translator would have a reason to ask a question about a vulgarism or whatever. In particular, a word like "hoe" (which is also the name of a garden implement), which has only recently achieved any currency outside its original milieu, could present problems for someone who may not even know of its sexual connotations (for the record, it's a corruption of "whore").

As for "bitch", it also is a perfectly respectable word, referring to a female canine, and it is rather unfortunate as well as wholly predictable that it is also used as a term of abuse for women.

I must say I find idea of restricting the discussion of issues related to sexuality and the like quite childish.

On a related note, I have noticed that even mild and totally inoffensive attempts at humour are being jumped on. If the intention behind this is to frighten off everybody with an IQ over 70, you're certainsly going the right way about it. I am certainly thinking very hard about my own position.


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Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 15:49
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
Dear Richard Jan 14, 2004

I'm sorry that this issue "makes you sick", but the fact is that, as Gianfranco said, there are Genuine queries and time-wasters.

Those who have been here for some time can make the difference when the question comes from someone with a profile or not, from a translator or not, from a schoolboy (girl) or not, when it is for a translation or not.

I've seen many, many queries from translators for porn translations getting many answers with no problem.

If we answer to questions asked just to have fun, because the asker found this site and thinks it's an opportunity to learn how to insult his neighbour, we're calling for abuse of the site. What kind of abuse? well, just many, many questions of that kind.

In fact I agree with Uldis, Alexander and you, Richard. I just call your attention on the difference between legitimate queries and those for having fun with a group of translators.


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 14:49
German to English
Censorship Jan 14, 2004

Richard wrote:
There are plenty of reasons why a translator would have a reason to ask a question about a vulgarism or whatever. In particular, a word like "hoe" (which is also the name of a garden implement), which has only recently achieved any currency outside its original milieu, could present problems for someone who may not even know of its sexual connotations (for the record, it's a corruption of "whore").

I must say I find idea of restricting the discussion of issues related to sexuality and the like quite childish.

Gianfranco wrote:
I agree, in general terms, with the principles enunciated by Mårten, but we are facing here a different issue.

Some people appear to draw amusement from sending vulgarities to the KudoZ area. These people are NOT members but they use the site anonymously, through an opportunistic email address, and have no real linguistic problem or issue.

It is not censorship or prudery, just one of the many discretionary tasks that we perform routinely to make the site better.

Hi Richard,
I share your distaste for censorship and agree wholeheartedly that we must make allowances for "vulgar" language in a workplace for translators.
I don't know why this particular question was deleted, but please allow me to share some of my experiences with KudoZ over the past three years. Every now and then a juvenile delinquent likes to join in – often on a Saturday evening when he is terribly bored – and post a string of questions to see what kind of reaction he can stir up. He might be a neo-Nazi asking how to translate "I hate Jews" or maybe he wants to see if he can upset the ladies with questions involving oral sex, etc. These are just kids out to have a good time (Clockwork Orange?), but as Gianfranco says, they have no real linguistic issue. I hope people like you will be happy to join in as a "bouncer" and send them into cyberspace.

Cheers, Kim



[Edited at 2004-01-14 19:53]


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