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Clarifications of new rules: (1) multiple answers, (2) guessing
Thread poster: Steffen Pollex
Steffen Pollex  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:26
English to German
+ ...
Jan 27, 2004

How else would I have to interprete this new "warning":

"Note: You have already submitted an answer to this question. You may submit another answer, but bear in mind that systematically offering multiple translations is against the rules."

Do I get something wrong? So far, I had believed Proz members are grown-up people that wouldn't need this kind of

"Bad boy, don't do that!!!".

Now I'm in kind of doubt...


[Edited at 2004-01-27 15:11]


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Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 07:26
Member (2002)
English to German
See updated KudoZ Etiquette Jan 27, 2004

The updated KudoZ Etiquette has been announced in this thread:
http://www.proz.com/topic/17781

Point 3.2 of the updated Etiquette refers to the recommendation you have mentioned.

As you will know, rules (and recommendations or norms) are necessary in all communities, regardless of the age of its members. The recommendation you have mentioned is part of the KudoZ Etiquette; no more, no less.

Or does your indignation refer to the fact that answerers are reminded each time they are about to disregard this recommendation? If so, please bear in mind that this is a new element of the ruleset and members need to be made aware of it; this reminder may or may not remain permanent after an introductory period. Secondly, you should not encounter this reminder very often anyway, because (as specified in the Etiquette) the submission of more than one answer is expected to constitute an exception. We hope that in these few exceptional cases you will not mind the additional click for the benefit of those who are not yet aware of this recommendation and will appreciate the reminder.

Thank you
Endre Both
ProZ.com Moderator


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 01:26
SITE FOUNDER
Can you suggest an alternative wording? Jan 27, 2004

No, you did not do anything wrong. But yes, it has been deemed appropriate to make a posting of this nature.

Can you rewrite this notice in a way that would be less likely to offend you and others?


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Marijke Singer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:26
Dutch to English
+ ...
New wording Jan 27, 2004

Steffen does have a point! I don't think there is any need to refer to the rules. How about:
"Note: You have already submitted an answer to this question. We would recommend you add a note to your original answer."


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Marcus Malabad  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 07:26
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
Not for people like you but for other types of baddies Jan 27, 2004

Steffen Pollex wrote:

Do I get something wrong? So far, I had believed Proz members are grown-up people that wouldn't need this kind of

"Bad boy, don't do that!!!".

[Edited at 2004-01-27 14:21]


Steffen,

Expecting all members in this multilingual and multi-cultural site to behave as "grown-up people" as you say is naive and downright utopian. We have witnessed countless instances of behavior that merits appellations such as juvenile, sophomoric, crass and [insert your local expletive here].

So, yes, rules are needed, even the simplest rule such as the one you cite above. If you feel you're being coddled like a delinquent, then I suggest to simply brush it off and go on your merry way. These rules are written for those who break them; violators and their ilk are legion in these parts.

Would you, as a pedestrian, feel like you're being treated like an errant child when you see "don't walk" at a street corner? No, you'd be thankful that that sign was posted for everyone's benefit. And it surely was not placed there to remind you you're a "bad, bad boy".

Marcus


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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 23:26
French to English
+ ...
It is preferable to add other options to original entry Jan 27, 2004

I agree with Marijke

I noticed the "NEW RULE" notice but many of my colleagues did not. There may be quite a lot of comments as people readjust.

Perhaps the new rules should be sent to all members to minimize shock factor.

Another rule which is confusing is:
guessing should be avoided.

Then why offer Confidence Level 1 (guessing)?


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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 07:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Confusion Jan 28, 2004

Rita,

I quite agree with the point about the incongruency of discouraging something (i.e. guessing), while at the same time offering the possibility to do so....

....but saying that: "Perhaps the new rules should be sent to all members to minimize shock factor"

Please.....I read the new rules and didn't need "counselling" for any kind of post traumatic disorder. I think I can safely say that my "shock factor" was "zero".
Is this a record?

Saludos,
Andy


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nyamuk
United States
Local time: 23:26
Indonesian to English
+ ...
"Note: You have already submitted an answer to this question." Jan 28, 2004

I haven't come across multiple answers to a question that warrant this notice.

Most of the multiple answers I have seen were the result of someone submitting an answer and then refreshing the page with their new submission.

My guess is that the notice would not appear in this instance.


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Marijke Singer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:26
Dutch to English
+ ...
Sometimes we want guesses! Jan 28, 2004

Rita Heller wrote:

Another rule which is confusing is:
guessing should be avoided.

Then why offer Confidence Level 1 (guessing)?


I usually post a question as a last resort and I really do want guesses! Better than nothing. This is supposed to be a professional website (and presumably the translator understands the subject matter of the text being translated) and any thoughts regarding a word or phrase is sometimes quite welcome even when really wild. It might just trigger the right avenue to explore. It also helps when deciding to rule certain options out.

I find the Confidence Level choice quite useful. Very often I am very sure of the answer I am giving but not so sure about the original question so I give my answer a confidence level of 3 or 4. I think many translators overlook this interpretation of the confidence level option. The confidence level is not just to specify how sure we are about our answers but also how sure we are about the question. They are intrinsically related. But I am transgressing. Sorry!


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 01:26
SITE FOUNDER
Clarifications on guessing: don't make a habit of it Jan 28, 2004

Rita wrote:

Another rule which is confusing is:
guessing should be avoided.

Then why offer Confidence Level 1 (guessing)?


Perhaps the rule should be "making a practice of guessing is forbidden"

Perhaps the lowest confidence level should be "educated guess"

Would this clarify our position?

The thing is, it is a judgement call. For example, guessing at each and every Spanish question would be very disruptive. With the new rules now, it would be clear grounds for suspension.

However, taking even a wild guess at a question that has sat unanswered for three days, using the confidence bar properly and saying "this is a wild guess"... well, no harm in that. This input would be welcomed by most askers.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 01:26
SITE FOUNDER
Good point, Marijke: confidence is tied to question, too Jan 28, 2004

Marijke wrote:

I find the Confidence Level choice quite useful. Very often I am very sure of the answer I am giving but not so sure about the original question so I give my answer a confidence level of 3 or 4... The confidence level is not just to specify how sure we are about our answers but also how sure we are about the question.

Very good point. We should bear this in mind.


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Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 03:26
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
No risk, I think... Jan 28, 2004

Henry wrote:
Perhaps the rule should be "making a practice of guessing is forbidden"

...The thing is, it is a judgement call. For example, guessing at each and every Spanish question would be very disruptive. With the new rules now, it would be clear grounds for suspension."


I think that the problem is with those who answer and have no clue. They are also those who don't read the rules and always chose confidence level 5. All the others chose the confidence bar with judgement, even when guessing.


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invguy  Identity Verified
Bulgaria
Local time: 08:26
English to Bulgarian
It's about responsibility Jan 30, 2004

Honestly, I find the new rules tending to be a bit more detailed than they ought to be (IMHO). Not much of a problem, as far as details don't begin to prevail over the basic purpose and spirit of the rules.

Both rules discussed here actually have the same basic purpose: to serve as a call for responsible attitude to answering KudoZ questions.

No matter the form or content of an answer, one needs to keep in mind that s/he might mislead the asker (even involuntarily) if s/he doesn't approach the process with due responsibility.

Maybe instead of the two rules it would be better to insert a sentence like: "Please keep in mind that posting multiple and/or contradicting answers or peer comments, as well as uninformed guesses, may mislead the asker and cause undesirable consequences."

Also, maybe somehing like: "Always try to use the most appropriate confidence level for your answers."

Writing this as I go, so my wording is clumsy, but you all get the meaning.

Else, I definitely do not agree with any general and/or explicit 'blacklisting' of guesses. This would be valid only for questions which have a precise answer. We all know that very often this is not the case. Quite the contrary, many questions require true brainstorming sessions; in this context, a guess - even a wild one - might prove invaluable. I find "confidence level = 1" as a fully appropriate and sufficient 'tag' for a guess-type answer. In addition, I personally use level 2 when my answer is a guess, but a fairly well grounded one.


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