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New KudoZ rules don't include proofreading questions
Thread poster: Nikki Graham

Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:44
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
Jan 28, 2004

We know that it's only one term per question, no sentence over 10 words, etc. but what about questions -usually labelled sentence- which quote a substantial part of the source text (say 20 words plus) with the asker's attempt at translating it underneath (which may be good, bad or indifferent).

Personally, I think that asking for free proofreading (especially if you post more than one of these sentences, without stating any particular difficulty you are having) is not in keeping with the KudoZ spirit (!) and I have just squashed two such questions.

Was I right or wrong to do so? And, if the former, could we have a specific rule about it (and perhaps a specific squashing option)?

[Edited at 2004-01-28 23:23]

[Edited at 2004-01-28 23:25]


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:44
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Ask the asker Jan 28, 2004

The normal difficulty in this question type is usually usage at one point of the sentence, which can be localised at a single reading.

If it can't be localised, send the asker a message, "Please post as a (specific) term question/specify your difficulty" before squashing.

Unless it's one of those kilometric sentences that has no head or tail to it, and the asker is asking for the reading and possible sense (I would consider this valid). Sentences of ambiguous resolution would also fall under this type. (Actually, I'd pity the guy who had several of these.)

If this occurs repeatedly, however, use a soft discretionary limit (10 questions is still a soft limit, in the sense that hardware does not prevent it).

Stress yourself as little as possible, these "limits" are still very subjective.


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:44
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Too soft Jan 29, 2004

Parrot wrote:

The normal difficulty in this question type is usually usage at one point of the sentence, which can be localised at a single reading.


Then the question should be about that specific "point" only. Asking us to assess the difficulty (if indeed any) is asking a lot.

If it can't be localised, send the asker a message, "Please post as a (specific) term question/specify your difficulty" before squashing.


You mean an Ask the asker message? The problem with not squashing the question, is that it gets answered, and there goes yet another useless entry into the glossary.

I would consider 10 of these questions in a row rather abusive myself, and I think a lot of people would probably be getting rather fed up after only 3 or 4! If we let every Tom, Dick and Harry ask up to 10 proofreading questions, we'd be inundated every day.


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Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
Be thankful Jan 29, 2004

One thing we can be glad for in the type of questions mentioned here is that we get some context. Some of the trickiest things in translation have to do with how to put sentences together and properly render terms within specific contexts. As we all are well aware, the same thing is not always said the same way in every context, so be thankful to the asker for giving us some!

There is a difference between that and someone who expects us to translate an entire job for free. There we may feel free to decline help.


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:44
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Gray area Jan 29, 2004

Henry Hinds wrote:

One thing we can be glad for in the type of questions mentioned here is that we get some context. Some of the trickiest things in translation have to do with how to put sentences together and properly render terms within specific contexts. As we all are well aware, the same thing is not always said the same way in every context, so be thankful to the asker for giving us some!

There is a difference between that and someone who expects us to translate an entire job for free. There we may feel free to decline help.



But where does the proofreading fall? It's already translated, so if it's good (nothing to change, or perhaps just a little something), then our input is minimal. However, if it's bad, you could end up translating 20 words plus, including a couple of difficult terms...

The same rules should apply to everyone.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 06:44
SITE FOUNDER
Proof-reading questions needn't go into the glossary Jan 29, 2004

Nikki wrote:
The problem with not squashing the question, is that it gets answered, and there goes yet another useless entry into the glossary.

Perhaps I am missing your point, but not every question goes into the glossary. Most of these type don't, at least they needn't. So fear of bad glossary entries is not a reason to squash.

As long as the question itself is a particular word, expression or grammatical usage, I personally see no trouble with them.


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:44
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
"Sentence" questions Jan 29, 2004

Can be, and are converted, into glossary terms by selecting the most problematic part of the question.

Anything entered that begins with "sentence", "frase" and the like gets edited and the browniz are taken away.


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:44
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Not particular Jan 29, 2004

Henry wrote:

As long as the question itself is a particular word, expression or grammatical usage, I personally see no trouble with them.


No, the proofreading questions I squashed were not asking about a particular word, expression or grammar point. They were long sentence in source language followed by translated sentence in English. I guess you had to guess that a proofreading exercise was wanted. The asker made no other comments in the question.

As for going into the glossary, I thought this happened automatically with every question asked in the new format. One has already been added as sentence...BLA BLA company has....


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:44
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Entries made into personal glossaries Jan 29, 2004

cannot be corrected by a moderator. Now, anyone displaying a personal glossary on his profile page with "sentence" = "I think" or "frase = mi interpretación" or something like that is fully responsible for the professional image he gives.

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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 12:44
English to French
+ ...
Thank you for the answer Jan 29, 2004

Henry Hinds wrote:

One thing we can be glad for in the type of questions mentioned here is that we get some context. Some of the trickiest things in translation have to do with how to put sentences together and properly render terms within specific contexts. As we all are well aware, the same thing is not always said the same way in every context, so be thankful to the asker for giving us some!

There is a difference between that and someone who expects us to translate an entire job for free. There we may feel free to decline help.



Of course...


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 12:44
English to French
+ ...
the next question Jan 29, 2004

Nikki Graham wrote:


But where does the proofreading fall? It's already translated, so if it's good (nothing to change, or perhaps just a little something), then our input is minimal. However, if it's bad, you could end up translating 20 words plus, including a couple of difficult terms...

The same rules should apply to everyone.


If you do not know so well what to do, just leave it to others, and see the next question.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 12:44
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Lien is so right Jan 29, 2004

lien wrote:If you do not know so well what to do, just leave it to others, and see the next question.

This option is central to ProZ.com. If more people applied this rule, many discussions, many rows and much policing could be avoided.
A friendly atmosphere thrives from the application of the admonition:

"Let a sleeping dog lie"

[Edited at 2004-01-29 04:08]


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xxxIanW
Local time: 12:44
German to English
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Sleeping dogs? Jan 29, 2004

"This option is central to ProZ.com. If more people applied this rule, many discussions, many rows and much policing could be avoided. A friendly atmosphere thrives from the application of the admonition: "

With respect, Mats, if everyone decided to "let sleeping dogs lie" as you do, nothing would EVER be improved and the quality of the KudoZ questions and answers would simply "go to the dogs".

Personally, I prefer constructive "rows and policing" to blinkered efforts to maintain the status quo at all costs, no matter how unsatisfactory it is. I see new improvements all the time at ProZ, which would not have been implemented without jabbing a couple of "sleeping dogs" every now and then.

[Edited at 2004-01-29 07:19]


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 12:44
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Letting sleeping dogs lie = Do not react to everything Jan 29, 2004

or
Keep your comments to yourself
or
Do not be so busybody
or
Do not assume things that you cannot possible be sure of (because they simply are assumptions)
or
Accept that even less professional people than yourself MIGHT now or later make valuable contributions.

ProZ.com is a venue where everybody presents himself/herself - how s/he does it is none of our business - let a hundred flowers blossom.

I am not against improvements - I constantly suggest them - but if we go one the way we now do, our Do's and Dont's list will be a mile long.

Mats

[Edited at 2004-01-29 07:34]


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 12:44
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
IMHO a legitimate request, if the asker offers his / her own version Jan 29, 2004

Hi Nikki,

Nikki Graham wrote:

.......but what about questions -usually labelled sentence- which quote a substantial part of the source text (say 20 words plus) with the asker's attempt at translating it underneath (which may be good, bad or indifferent).
..........

Was I right or wrong to do so? And, if the former, could we have a specific rule about it (and perhaps a specific squashing option)?



In my SC members (and I as a moderator) accept the "proofreading" of a little sentence, if the asker also posts her/his own translation proposal. The thought behind it is that sometimes one gets lost in a glass of water.. because you are tired, under stress or simply aren't creative in that moment.

And then, even if the sentence is, let's say 20-word long, how many words of the proposed sentence would you substitute?! From what I have seen in my SCs, a couple of verbs and nouns.

In conclusion, I don't squash them and wouldn't have squashed them.

Giuliana

[Edited at 2004-01-29 08:07]


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