| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Please, do not ever be condescending Thread poster: Mats Wiman
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| Micromanagement? | Apr 28, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
Comments are OK if they pertain to the answer and not the answerer and are devoid of negatve value judgements ('wrong', 'bad', 'stupid' etc)
Clearcut contestations are also welcome if substantiated: "That expression is used by cowboys, not by ladies - see below (i.e. my suggestion)"
andycw wrote: Translators (ergo, writers) don't like being "micro-managed" down to how they should respond.
I thought your thread was about the use of "sorry" when disagreeing with someone's answer. Now, you've given us permission to contest an answer as long as we provide linguistic justification. "Clearcut contestations are also welcome if substantiated ..." Well, it's good to know you agree with the KudoZ rules of etiquette. But can you also tell us what comments are permitted other than "Postings are not to be personal in nature. All questions, answers, peer opinions and other postings should focus strictly on terminology?" "Stupid" would clearly violate that rule, but "wrong"? In your view "sorry" should also not be permitted, but how can we follow your KudoZ rules if we don't have a complete list of no-no's?
[Edited at 2004-04-28 17:13]
[Edited at 2004-04-28 17:14]
| | | | Dinny 
Greece
Local time: 21:04
Italian to Danish
+ ...
| I love this site! | Apr 28, 2004 |
Nowhere in the whole wide web would you find such a polite and friendly site as ProZ.com! Three pages of comments and disputes without anybody offending anybody else!
I actually received a "disagree" the other day and remained a bit "hurt". But the guy was right! I replied to a term out of context, and the reply would have been OK 'cause literally translated that should have been the wording, but I ought to have spent a minute to having studied the topic before answering. I deserve... See more Nowhere in the whole wide web would you find such a polite and friendly site as ProZ.com! Three pages of comments and disputes without anybody offending anybody else!
I actually received a "disagree" the other day and remained a bit "hurt". But the guy was right! I replied to a term out of context, and the reply would have been OK 'cause literally translated that should have been the wording, but I ought to have spent a minute to having studied the topic before answering. I deserved my "disagree" (I don't remember if any 'sorry' was preceeding the blow - but an explanation was provided)and afterwards I was quite happy that my wrong answer didn't lead the asker to use a wrong expression.
I think that answering KudoZ questions we DO wish to lend a hand, and it should be appreciated, but we shouldn't consider ourselves to be perfect, and it's fine with me that someone who knows better tells me when I'm driving into a wrong alley!
As my friend at work says: I work, therefore I happen to make mistakes - people doing nothing all day never risks that!
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| | | | | Big Smilie here | Apr 28, 2004 |
Dinny wrote:
Nowhere in the whole wide web would you find such a polite and friendly site as ProZ.com! Three pages of comments and disputes without anybody offending anybody else!
That just shows how relative everything is! Thanks for that refreshing remark, Dinny!
Folks, Fellow ProZ, we should be grateful that we've nothing more serious to argue about This is (doch) luxury!
[Edited at 2004-04-28 22:52]
| | | | | the sorry-wrong syndrome: or developing ceratorhine skin | Apr 29, 2004 |
Dinny wrote:
Nowhere in the whole wide web would you find such a polite and friendly site as ProZ.com! Three pages of comments and disputes without anybody offending anybody else!
That used to happen in dem here parts before, probably before you joined. It was a free-for-all, with blows and arrows whizzing pass. Until moderator powers were upgraded that is. Now it's easy enough to stop all and any type of flaming. But we still see them sometimes (witness Claudia's admonition above and the subsequent text editing by the errant member).
My contribution to this discussion:
Mats, you seem to be evolving as the discussion goes on, with your opinion taking shape as members weigh in.
We've all probably come to agree that prefixing a value judgment in English with 'sorry' is a cultural fixture and, semantically, it has nothing in common with the disrespect that you attach to it.
But in mid-discussion, there's a sea change and you seem to say that it's not only the 'sorry' that bothers you but what follows as well. I admit that I have succumbed to the temptation before of writing my "sorry, this is wrong". My moderator hat prevents me from ever uttering anything harsher although I've entertained thoughts of strangulation.
Many times, in cases involving grammar and style for example, it is immediately apparent to a native speaker when a statement sounds off. Quickly disagreeing and writing an efficient 'sorry, wrong' is highly enticing.
I'm tempted to do this more to the many pros out there who translate into both combinations of a pair where English is one of the pair. We all know as pro translators that English, being the lingua franca that it is, occupies the most likely position of being the one language that most non-native English speakers would consider themselves competent to translate into. That's cool, no problemo, dude.
But, folks, it should also be universally accepted that people who do it and, broadly speaking, people who translate into their B language - and do it with chutzpah - should expect value judgments on the B-language work that they choose to make public, especially in KudoZ where passing judgment is not only a matter of course but also a desirable action.
In other words, Mats, 'sorry, wrong' is apt in the case I mention above. Nothing condescending about it. Were you to apply your now famous laissez-faire attitude towards KudoZ to this very phenomenon you speak of, you'd be perfectly fine.
You're one of the most senior members in years of ProZ.com membership. One would think that you'd have developed hide as thick as a rhino's. Mine is double elephantine with a layer of alligator. Were I to react viscerally to the number of times my answers have been crushed and mutilated, I'd be a Gollum-like wreck. But choosing to be edified is much more gratifying in the long run.
Just brush it off, man, and keep on surfing and learning.
Respect,
Marcus
[Edited at 2004-04-29 11:40]
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| Just another comment | May 1, 2004 |
I actually find disagrees can often be instructive to me as an answerer, and even if I think they are wrong, it is very rarely that I find them offensive. But maybe I have just been lucky.
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
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I have followed your discussion here, which slowly became delicate.
I wish to say my opinion and try to conclude a little the discussion.
1. I have already expressed my ideea that peer comments are in my opinion useless.
I assume that both askers and answerers are correct,that is,they really want to do a good job, so at the end the asker has to choose the most suitable answer for his context.If he is a good translator he would know to choose the real correct answer.
... See more I have followed your discussion here, which slowly became delicate.
I wish to say my opinion and try to conclude a little the discussion.
1. I have already expressed my ideea that peer comments are in my opinion useless.
I assume that both askers and answerers are correct,that is,they really want to do a good job, so at the end the asker has to choose the most suitable answer for his context.If he is a good translator he would know to choose the real correct answer.
I don't like to make comments on answers,neither positive, nor negative.
I have always thought that if one has some other opinion,or idea, he should write his opinion down and if not it is not necessary to just "agree".
People here and as a result me too, keep giving a lot of peer comments in order to receive BrowniZ.It has become a real fight for BrowniZ and KudoZ in order to receive jobs.
It's not a bad thing for the ones who do it, it was the idea of the site founder to connect the two fields (KudoZ and jobs).
About the form of the peer comments:of course everyone likes to receive an "agree" just to know that someone else has the same opinion. It is constructive especially for the newbies on this site.
I must say I have received several times "disagree" not always being justified.
There was never a "sorry" at the beginning and the tone was always hard, or so I have felt.
It was not that the answer was not correct, but there were always native speakers who found some unimportant word not suitable. And they would have destroyed me for that, I am sure.
Now I know they may be right and I respect everybody who works on this site for his/her knowledge and work. I looked on their profile and saw thousands of BrowniZ and KudoZ, which I assume they didn't even need to use to buy a job.
Then I cried and ask myself: "Why do they have to be like this? Why on earth cann't they let some new people work and try to get a job?" (new only on this site).
I don't understand this kind of people.
There are so many facilities here for platinum members, for the elder people on the site.Some new member can not afford anything. They want to get jobs, to work, so they can later afford the facilities too.
But how to do it?
I don't like the "disagree" and would never use it. If I really have something to say then I prefer to use "neutral".
There were cases when I admitted another answer might be as well correct and I put my answer there, but I also put at least a note that the other answer might also be correct.
I admit I fought with people who gave me "disagree" as I mentioned above.
I remember a case when the asker choosed an answer of somebody adding a note which said that she made the decision to choose the answer of the one who fought more(one of the people mentioned above)even if there was another more correct and in a shorter time.
So please, if this peer comments really have to remain, at least don't make attacks with them, use them politely and only when necessary for the context.
Please don't destroy each other but try to help, especially the newcomers.
I know it's hard and everybody needs jobs.
Regarding the "native-speakers" it has already has been such a discussion with pros and against.
Translators, as a definition, work with at least one language wich is not a native one, so there is no one to be 100% native-speaker translator (only if he /she does not translate between two mother-tongues he has).
Translators are certified, pass some exames, so they know what they do.
Please stop making this diference. Important is to do your job properly.
Translators are needed to facilitate communication between different languages in the world.
We are not writers or poets here and even if, there are also literar translators and also great poets and writers which did write in other languages than the native one.
I only want to ask you for peace on this site... and if possible forget about "disagree" with or without "sorry". They always hurt.
KudoZ is like a brainstorming in translation and so there are not (or very few) really bad answers.
Ruxi ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 20:04
English to German
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| Calling a spade a spade | May 1, 2004 |
Hi Ruxi,
I beg to differ.
I find "disagree" comments as important as "agree"'s, and I believe a "neutral" comment should not be used to express disagreement.
A recent question in English (mono) dealt with a technical term in the financial markets. The first answer had already received two "agrees", despite the fact that the concept used to explain had been used ou... See more Hi Ruxi,
I beg to differ.
I find "disagree" comments as important as "agree"'s, and I believe a "neutral" comment should not be used to express disagreement.
A recent question in English (mono) dealt with a technical term in the financial markets. The first answer had already received two "agrees", despite the fact that the concept used to explain had been used out of context. I disagreed, and we entered into a discussion which ultimately led to mutual agreement. Nobody was offended, and we found the best solution for the asker. That's the added value of the KudoZ system - agreeing and disagreeing are essential components of this process.
Best regards, Ralf ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sol
United States
Local time: 14:04
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Yes, calling a Spade a Spade | May 1, 2004 |
I also think that both Disagree and Neutral are very important, and they would be much more useful if they were used as intended. I personally use both, with very stricts rules for myself, and I have noticed that most other people who do use them do it in the same fashion:
I use Disagree when I am absolutely certain that the meaning of the translation is different from the meaning of the original. Just yesterday there was a question from English into Spanish in which the asker cho... See more I also think that both Disagree and Neutral are very important, and they would be much more useful if they were used as intended. I personally use both, with very stricts rules for myself, and I have noticed that most other people who do use them do it in the same fashion:
I use Disagree when I am absolutely certain that the meaning of the translation is different from the meaning of the original. Just yesterday there was a question from English into Spanish in which the asker chose an answer because they liked the way it sounded in Spanish, without taking into consideration that it changed completely the meaning intended. In situations like that, I Disagree post-grading. I hope that when I choose a wrong answer as an Asker someone will do me the favor of letting me know. As you can see, this has nothing to do with points. I believe leaving a wrong translation that was chosen unchallenged in the glossaries will make someone else in the future make the same mistake.
I don't Disagree when the mistake is grammatical unless the question was about grammar.
I use Neutral to add comments. My comments are not a "nice" way of disagreeing, they are just that, comments. For example, if someone gives a suggestion of a local term, I might add that in some other place another term is used. Once or twice I have received bad reactions from my neutrals with the words "it does not deserve a neutral". That makes no sense to me, a Neutral is not in any shape or form a disagreement (when I use it), and I believe that the bad reaction I received was based on other people using it to disagree. In other words, the "Neutral" has passed in some peoples minds to mean "Disagree", so now the next step that follows will probably be to punch "Agree" to give a polite disagreement. It is really amazing how quickly words can lose their meanings.
Maybe there should be more options than just "Agree, Neutral and Disagree". Maybe a 5 point system would work better, with "Comment" being a separate option. Something like:
Totally Agree
Agree in the most part
Neither Agree nor Disagree
Disagree in part
Totally Disagree
Anyway, it's just a suggestion. I would be glad to hear what other people think about it.
Sol ▲ Collapse
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| Good priorities | May 1, 2004 |
Sol wrote:
I believe leaving a wrong translation that was chosen unchallenged in the glossaries will make someone else in the future make the same mistake.
Sol
Dear Sol,
I think you've put your finger on the true issue here. What does KudoZ peer grading boil down to? In my opinion it's helping the asker find a good translation. We do the asker a disservice if we allow unacceptable answers to stand unchallenged. The best peer graders comment on answers either positively or negatively because they CARE about the outcome. They are more concerned about what will go into the asker's translation (and ultimately the KudoZ glossary) than whether a colleague's feelings may be hurt because his or her answer was challenged. The guiding principle of KudoZ, in my opinion, must be quality. A KudoZ answerer is like a teacher - and some teachers put out bad information. We are the superintendents of education/translation trying to ensure that bad information is not disseminated.
| | | | | Sorry to say sorry? Verrückte Welt?! | May 2, 2004 |
As the alleged “offender” cited by Mats (with this choice of words being a bit on the strong side, don’t you think?), I feel compelled to add a few lines, hopefully without reiterating the observations made by other colleagues above.
Yep, guilty as charged – as a German native-speaker (“so-called” and otherwise) I said “sorry”, adding “aber das klingt weder gut noch ist es richtig.” in direct reference to the answerer’s explanation for their answer “das kann ... See more As the alleged “offender” cited by Mats (with this choice of words being a bit on the strong side, don’t you think?), I feel compelled to add a few lines, hopefully without reiterating the observations made by other colleagues above.
Yep, guilty as charged – as a German native-speaker (“so-called” and otherwise) I said “sorry”, adding “aber das klingt weder gut noch ist es richtig.” in direct reference to the answerer’s explanation for their answer “das kann gut klingen”, backed up by my own comprehensive answer to the question. At the time, I wrote off Mats’ reprimand as a misconstruction by someone who – dare I say – is neither a native speaker of English nor of German. I now realise that it actually comes with an entire philosophy attached to it. What’s next? Being berated for saying “thank you” as this could possibly be seen as brown-nosing, thereby confusing the asker as to what would be the best answer? Puuullleeese …
Rhetorics aside, suffice it to say:
1 Where I come from, saying “sorry” is a matter of courtesy (different strokes for different folks?).
2 Adding “sorry” softens the blow of an inherently negative event, i.e. a disagree, and is actually used to ***avoid*** upsetting people.
3 By its design, KudoZ only permits to log a disagree with the addition of an explanatory comment, which imho is a good thing. Now Mats asks us to refrain from commenting on answers. Perhaps I misunderstood the KudoZ nomenclature, but “peer comments” are designated as “peer comments”, hence an invitation to comment. By implication, a disagree entails an assessment or judgement, like it or not. If you don’t, you may be better off not entering into the KudoZ game. But then again, if you disagree with the inherent negativity of disagrees, you should be campaigning for the abolition of “disagree” as a peer comment category.
Usually I would not have bothered to enter into a discussion of this type, as – frankly – it has little merit and life is short. However, as the “offender” and the person who could quite rightfully feel offended by Mats’ insinuations and, in fact, judgements regarding my intentions (hypocrisy, anyone?), I think it’s about time to set the record straight. (Although, reading the entire thread, it appears that – due to strong opposition – Mats has now shifted from taking a stance against “sorry” to having a problem with factual comments as such (other than “excellent” and the like, of course).
In conclusion, sorry, Mats, whatever your personal preferences may be, you’d better get used to reading “sorry” more often – just suck it up, as we say down under, i.e. deal with it and quit complaining. ▲ Collapse
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