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24 hours before closing kudoz answers
Thread poster: Annamaria Leone

Annamaria Leone  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 02:23
Spanish to Italian
+ ...
Jun 17, 2004

Hello.
As you all know, the rules for Kudoz questions state that askers have to wait 24h before closing the questions, and this is quite a good rule since it assures that a large number of translator can view the question and give their advises. Unfortunately I have recently noted that a lot of askers for my language pair close the question as soon as possible.
This often leads to low quality answers and Kudoz became just a quiz, without any further thinking or deep understanding of the question exposed.
It would be really better if people was not allowed to close the question before 24h, instead of leaving the chose to individual professionalism.
I don't know if you have already discussed this theme, but I would like to know your opinion.
Thanks a lot.

Annamaria


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Antonella Andreella  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 03:23
German to Italian
+ ...
Lots of questions? Jun 17, 2004

Hi Annamaria,

maybe an asker who puts lots of question and does not want it to be visible to potential helpers.... just an idea

However if an asker feels he/she got the right answer and is 100% satisfied with it, there's no need to wait for others to help, this is my personal opinion.


Ciao
Antonella


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Valentina Pecchiar  Identity Verified
Italy
Member
English to Italian
+ ...
Ditto! Jun 17, 2004

Annamaria Leone wrote:
Unfortunately I have recently noted that a lot of askers for my language pair close the question as soon as possible.
This often leads to low quality answers and Kudoz became just a quiz, without any further thinking or deep understanding of the question exposed.
It would be really better if people was not allowed to close the question before 24h, instead of leaving the chose to individual professionalism.


Annamaria,
you've snatched the thought out of my very mind!

I was just meditating along the same lines browsing through the latest questions... And the decreasing quality issue is even worse when the answers chosen are entered in the glossary, 'cause a user is more likely to use the entry without reviewing the full (or non existent, in this case) discussion.


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Annamaria Leone  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 02:23
Spanish to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
No need to wait? Jun 17, 2004

Antonella Andreella wrote:
maybe an asker who puts lots of question and does not want it to be visible to potential helpers.... just an idea


Ciao Antonella.
This is what I thought too... but perhaps it's just that they see no need to wait.
But if you have a doubt you should see what others say and not be satisfied after just one answer. If you are satisfied at the first answer, perhaps:
1) the answer was obvious and you wasn't able to find an obvious translation on your own
2) you just wanted to see if some body confirms what you guessed. But, if so, you should state this in the question, IMHO

Perhaps, it would be enough to let know to askers they have to help, and that if they do not wait they will be notified to moderators or something like that.
However, the person who closed in a few minutes the questions today had asked about 20 questions within two days...

Bye, and thanks for the answers


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Annamaria Leone  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 02:23
Spanish to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I agree Jun 17, 2004

Muja wrote:
And the decreasing quality issue is even worse when the answers chosen are entered in the glossary, 'cause a user is more likely to use the entry without reviewing the full (or non existent, in this case) discussion.


Hi Muja!
Yeah, you are right!
What do you think about the possibility of prohibit to close via the software?
Bye

Annamaria


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GoodWords  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 20:23
Spanish to English
+ ...
Another vote for an obligatory 24 hour wait Jun 17, 2004

There is no reason to allow questions to be closed within 24 hours, and every good reason to enforce a wait.

In the pair I follow, ES-EN, recently I have been seeing roughly 15-30% of questions closed within the first hour. Better answers often arrive after the questions are closed. "Moral kudoz" are deserved by members who submit answers to closed questions. They don't get any points for doing so; their only desire is to set the record straight on the term in question.

An asker who is doing an urgent translation and needs an answer right away is free to choose an answer to use in their text, but they should nevertheless be unable to close the query until 24 hours have passed. (A better answer may come in in the meantime -- even if it is too late to be used in the asker's translation, the quality of the KudoZ archives will be improved by having the best answer available for selection.)

[Edited at 2004-06-17 14:39]


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:23
English to Italian
getting worse? Jun 17, 2004

Well, for me, this is another sign that the KudoZ game is deteriorating faster than ever. Recently, in another forum, I've been accused of being a doom merchant regarding the KudoZ platform. I am too negative, apparently. Am I?

Giovanni


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 22:23
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Too negative... yes Jun 17, 2004

Giovanni and all,

the request to grade only after 24 hours is a running experiment, as we are trying to leave (as always), the maximum freedom to the members.

If the experiment fails, and the negative comments, or misuse, exceed the positive comments, the 24 hours could be enforced by a change in the software.
The effect of an enforced 24 hours delay could be a lower number of questions graded, and we are still trying to appeal to the users rather than enforce it.

Note that the KudoZ area has evolved in many details, but it will always depend, in great part, on the users responsibility.
In other words, no matter how many limits we can devise or guidance we provide, a minority will always misuse it... as everything else in the real world.

Gianfranco


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Valentina Pecchiar  Identity Verified
Italy
Member
English to Italian
+ ...
Ditto part 2 Jun 17, 2004

GoodWords wrote:
There is no reason to allow questions to be closed within 24 hours, and every good reason to enforce a wait.

Better answers often arrive after the questions are closed. (...) An asker who is doing an urgent translation and needs an answer right away is free to choose an answer to use in their text, but they should nevertheless be unable to close the query until 24 hours have passed. (A better answer may come in in the meantime -- even if it is too late to be used in the asker's translation, the quality of the KudoZ archives will be improved by having the best answer available for selection.)


Hi Annamaria,
GoodWords has already answered on my behalf (GoodWords, let's define the royalties I owe you in private)

As per the moral KudoZ of answering to closed questions for the sake of the glossary and future users, please excuse my bragging about it, I've happened to add quite a few answers while using the glossary on live jobs and I'd like to encourage my esteemed colleagues to do the same: the KudoZ is not only a game but a huge on-going resource, it's up to us to make it better and better.

We don't want Giovanni and his pessimistic attitude toward KudoZ to be really true, do we ?

PS Giovanni, in spite of my rosy-sounding words above, I do tend to agree with you.


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:23
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Great suggestion. Jun 17, 2004

An asker who is doing an urgent translation and needs an answer right away is free to choose an answer to use in their text, but they should nevertheless be unable to close the query until 24 hours have passed. (A better answer may come in in the meantime -- even if it is too late to be used in the asker's translation, the quality of the KudoZ archives will be improved by having the best answer available for selection.)



I think that is a great suggestion. I've seen way too many wrong answers make their way into the glossary.


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Steffen Walter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:23
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
24 hour waiting period - vote for implementation Jun 17, 2004

Hi all,

While the 24-hour waiting period is still only a recommendation not a rule, its binding implementation had been discussed at length, also amongst moderators and staff. All negativity aside (Giovanni, just in case you were referring to my statement in the other thread: I did not accuse you of being negative and would thus appreciate if you didn't use such a strong term), I do support those of you who wish to see this feature imposed as a binding mechanism as this could improve the quality of KudoZ. I wholeheartedly agree with GoodWords' comments - the benefits of this move would by far outweigh the disadvantages/constraints put on KudoZ askers.

Steffen


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:23
SITE FOUNDER
Giovanni too negative? Not really... Jun 17, 2004

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Well, for me, this is another sign that the KudoZ game is deteriorating faster than ever. Recently, in another forum, I've been accused of being a doom merchant regarding the KudoZ platform. I am too negative, apparently. Am I?

People started declaring that KudoZ was going downhill in early 2000 - just a few months after it went online. (It was barely used at the time.) On the other hand, occasionally members remark now that 'things have settled down', or 'the archives are really starting to get useful'. I guess it depends upon perspective, and what you pay attention to. Certainly the number of people using KudoZ has only risen steadily.

As for you, Giovanni, I don't think you are too negative. Your words almost always are... but the fact that you continue to be along for the ride tells me that my impression of you as negative was, perhaps, merely a matter of perspective.


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 04:23
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Some thoughts Jun 17, 2004

First of all, there are askers who do not visit proZ often. I mean they may be off the Internet for months on many reasons (including dial-up connection and paying separately for Internet and for minutes your phone is busy, which is the case for many proZ members from the former USSR including me -- every minute you spend on-line costs twice).

Also, as it was already noted, there are questions which are quite obvious, just to check. Even a quick answer may be so complete and satisfying that no others are really necessary.
It's not a big secret that the most of peer comments comes during the first one-two hours after a question is asked. The chances to get a new answer on the day after are very low in practice.

So, I would propose a strict time limit, but not a day -- say, an hour or two.

[Edited at 2004-06-17 15:53]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 04:23
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
ProZ statistics Jun 17, 2004

Just using the opportunity to ask the question...

Henry wrote:
Certainly the number of people using KudoZ has only risen steadily.


I remember a period when the statistics of kudoZ activity and job postings was shown at the ProZ home page. It was very interesting to track how the numbers rise from month to month.

Is it possible to implement a special page for such statistics (overall kudoZ questions/answers, the number of kudoZ members registered, job proposals) to see a visual presentation of the site development in time scale?

[Edited at 2004-06-17 16:03]

[Edited at 2004-06-17 16:05]


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GoodWords  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 20:23
Spanish to English
+ ...
Counter-arguments Jun 17, 2004

Kirill Semenov wrote:

First of all, there are askers who do not visit proZ often. I mean they may be off the Internet for months on many reasons (including dial-up connection and paying separately for Internet and for minutes your phone is busy, which is the case for many proZ members from the former USSR including me -- every minute you spend on-line costs twice).

Also, as it was already noted, there are questions which are quite obvious, just to check. Even a quick answer may be so complete and satisfying that no others are really necessary.
It's not a big secret that the most of peer comments comes during the first one-two hours after a question is asked. The chances to get a new answer on the day after are very low in practice.

So, I would propose a strict time limit, but not a day -- say, an hour or two.

[Edited at 2004-06-17 15:53]


Responding to your first point, it is not so bad if you don't close a question yourself. At worst, the robot will do it, which in effect means that your peers will decide on the selected answer. Members who can connect at least once a fortnight, or once a month, can briefly visit their open questions and close them. The total time taken to chose the right answer should not, after all be different at that time than at the moment when the question is asked. If the time it takes is longer because there are more choices to be considered, then this is to the good of the archives, because the asker has more viable choices to consider. If one of the late-arriving answers is better, then it is proper that it have a chance to be selected. The alternative is for the asker to make a hasty decision and risk recording a less-than-optimal answer as the selected answer.

On your second point, I have two arguments against. The first is that while in some cases the correct answer may seem obvious to the asker, it is still possible for a better answer to come in when the other half of the world wakes up. I have seen this happen on numerous occasions. Secondly, if the swift answer is indeed the obvious correct one, it does not follow that it is therefore better to close the question quickly. There is no loss in enforcing a 24-hour wait.


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