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A new pattern of annoying conduct
Thread poster: Kirill Semenov

Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:28
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Feb 6, 2005

My apologies for bringing up such an unplesant subject, but for several months by now I've been witnessing a style of annoying conduct previously unknown to me.

There is a proZ member who monitors seemingly _all_ English(Any other) pairs, even those languages which he obviously don't know, and gives his comments...

*** to the quality of English style of the questions ***

His typical comments in the Asker field is like "this is bad Engish". I want to emphasize: not in a peer comment, but addressing to * askers *.

It's a known fact that there are cases when askers formulate their questions in English pairs because English(any language) sometimes are more populated with translators than direct pairs.

I just try to understand whether such comments are violations of kudoZ etiquette? For me, it's an annoying conduct...

What do you think of it, dear colleagues?

[Edited at 2005-02-06 16:00]


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:28
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Alert the pair's moderator Feb 6, 2005

Hi Kirill,

Besides bringing this subject to this forum, you should bring the KudoZ question to the moderator in charge of the pair, so that proper action can be taken in case a rule has been broken.

Regards,
Enrique


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:28
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The problem is... Feb 6, 2005

two2tango wrote:
Besides bringing this subject to this forum, you should bring the KudoZ question to the moderator in harge of the pair, so that proper action can be taken in case a rule has been broken.


Dear Enrique,

Yes, I know the rules about moderators. The problem is that it's happening in several language pairs which I track (and, most likely, in many other which I do not). The second problem is that I'm not sure if such a conduct may be classified as breaking some kudoZ rules -- and these were reasons why I posted it as the forum topic.


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Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 23:28
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...
- Feb 6, 2005

Violation of the rule
3.4 - Commenting to an asker regarding his/her decision to post a certain question ... is strictly forbidden.
http://www.proz.com/kudozrules

Kirill, moderators are aware of the problem and of the person. The question is being discussed now. Thanks!


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:28
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Multi-path approach Feb 6, 2005

Hi Kirill,

no problems at all with your posting here, I was only sugesting a second (and in theory more effective) way to tackle the problem.

Have a great Sunday!
Enrique


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 23:28
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
KudoZ Golden rule 2 Feb 6, 2005

Dear all,

I have alwyas upheld and fought for this rule to be applied:

If you disagree, you are obliged to give a reason and/or a counterproposal

IF - which you shouldn't - pass judgement ("bad English", " not idiomatic", "never heard in present-day German" or similar) you're even more obliged to justify it with an explanation for you answer.

Mats


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:28
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I know your "golden rule" Feb 6, 2005

Dear Mats,

I'm afraid that you missed the point. The person I spoke about critisized the style of English language in which questions were given by askers. Not answers, but the questions and their grammatical correctness!


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 16:28
German to English
Annoying conduct Feb 6, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:

I have alwyas upheld and fought for this rule to be applied:

If you disagree, you are obliged to give a reason and/or a counterproposal

IF - which you shouldn't - pass judgement ("bad English", " not idiomatic", "never heard in present-day German" or similar) you're even more obliged to justify it with an explanation for you answer.



Hi Mats, it's not a "golden rule" it's an official KudoZ rule for peer grading and it's built into the system. It's technically impossible to disagree with an answer without providing a reason.

4.3 - To disagree, one must enter linguistic justification. Personal comments are strictly prohibited.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 23:28
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
Sorry Kirill Feb 6, 2005

I was was maybe to fast but you have never heard my rule being named Golden Rule 2.

Golden Rule 1 (recently named Umbrella Rule 1):

If you don't like a question: Disregards it.

Golden Rule 2:

If you disagree, you're obliged to give a reason.

As somebody pointed out: "A disagree without a reason is of zero interest because it contains zero information."

Mats


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 23:28
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
Glad you discovered it Feb 6, 2005

I hope you don't want to gag me

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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:28
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Mats, I do know your "golden rule number 1" Feb 6, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:
Golden Rule 1 (recently named Umbrella Rule 1):
If you don't like a question: Disregards it.


Unfortunately, I'm among the ones who disregard the rule. I consider it's _only yours_ not proZ'. When I see askers who ask tons of questions in a day, I just cannot pass behind it and I consider it as a kudoZ abuse. Sorry, but this is _mine_ point. I have my right to disagree with you on the matter.

Anyway, my question was about another type of kudoZ behavior -- about a person who critisizes the style and grammatical correctness of the very formulation of questions in English. This is a peculiar way of treating askers which I find annoying and, basically, illegal.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 23:28
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
You're of course entitled to YOUR view Feb 6, 2005

but to say that my view is not ProZ's is going a bit far as a number of discussion have shown.
I and my co-viewers might be in the minority so far but I won't acccept the asker hostile attitudes of many.
But let's leave this now concentrate on discussing creative solutions entailing more individual choices and less ruling and policing.

Mats

[Edited at 2005-02-07 23:04]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:28
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It's OK, dear Mats Feb 6, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:
but to say that my view is not ProZ's is going a bit far as a number of discussion have shown.


It's OK, of course you also has your right to express your view -- perfectly OK with me, and I appreciate your opinion. But not so *often*. Whenever there is a question of kudoZ abuse you state all the same point: just pass it by. I consider such a position strange both for a kudoZ moderator (luckily, I'm not in your pair) and for an average person trying to reach some equilibrium. I just wonder if you propose your neighbors who suffer or witness a law violations just to "pass it by and forget it"...


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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 23:28
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Might I suggest Feb 6, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:

Dear all,

I have alwyas upheld and fought for this rule to be applied:

If you disagree, you are obliged to give a reason and/or a counterproposal

IF - which you shouldn't - pass judgement ("bad English", " not idiomatic", "never heard in present-day German" or similar) you're even more obliged to justify it with an explanation for you answer.

Mats



Mats,

Might I suggest that instead of constantly (and somewhat tediously) referring to "THE KudoZ Golden Rule" you refer to "MY KudoZ Golden Rule".

You will appreciate the fact that there are always newcomers to the site who, in view of your status as Moderator, may confuse what are simply your OWN thoughts with norms or rules set out by Proz itself.

As this is not case, but rather you simply indulge in repeating your Golden Rules without qualification or explanation, you should at least make clear that this is merely your opinion. Nothing else, nothing more.

Saludos,
Andy

[Edited at 2005-02-06 21:37]


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Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:28
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
Am I missing something? Feb 6, 2005

Hi Kirill,
1. two2tango tried very nicely to point you into a direction that might help you that your problem gets addressed

2. as I understood Natalie told you very nicely that:
a) a rule exists
b) the moderators are aware of the problem.

3. Mats just stated his opinion about his interpretation of one the "existing" rules. And he added one of his own Kudoz Rules: If you don't like a question: Disregards it. (By the way it is also one of my Kudoz rules)


Now the point that I do not understand:

You want that people treat each other more friendly and that they do not comment on e.g. bad English etc. As you will realize, my English is also far away from being good.

In my opinion you are not far away from being disparaging in your contributions. You might argue that your comments

(luckily, I'm not in your pair)....I just wonder if you propose your neighbors who suffer or witness a law violations just to "pass it by and forget it"...

are just your opinion, and you have got a right to voice your opinion. Fine with me. But why are you not applying the high standards you expect others to comply with to your own contributions?

Siegfried


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