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About the level of the questions - PRO and non-PRO
Thread poster: lien

lien
Netherlands
Local time: 01:36
English to French
+ ...
Apr 18, 2005

It has never been a problem, but since there is a difference now between the "pro" questions and the "non-pro",(that was "easy" before)I feel I have to say something.

It seems that many people don't bother to choose and many many questions are listed under "non-pro" when obviously it is a little more complex than "any speaker of the language can answer".

As in :
Non-PRO: application intranisée
Non-PRO: geometrically incited fluid shear stresses
Non-PRO: après découpe sans usinage

The points you can get answering do not count anymore in your kudoz total.



[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-04-18 19:13]


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 18:36
German to English
Hear, hear! Apr 18, 2005

lien wrote:

It seems that many people don't bother to choose and many many questions are listed under "non-pro" when obviously it is a little more complex than "any speaker of the language can answer".



Yes, lien, I agree with you that we have to do something about the definitions.


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 02:36
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
One point Apr 18, 2005

Please don't forget one thing: non-registered members can ask only "non-pro" (easy) questions by default, though in fact many of theirs questions are tough enough. Non-registered members simply don't have a choice to choose from...

lien wrote:
It seems that many people don't bother to choose and many many questions are listed under "non-pro" when obviously it is a little more complex than "any speaker of the language can answer".


[Edited at 2005-04-18 16:58]


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Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
Arabic
+ ...
Non-registered users still have a choice, and it needs to be taken away Apr 18, 2005

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Non-registered members can ask only "non-pro" (easy) questions by default, though in fact many of theirs questions are tough enough. Non-registered members simply don't have a choice



Non-registered users still have the choice to post questions. That is the problem. To resolve the problem, that choice needs to be taken away. They should be required to register (and preferably pay) in order to post questions. If this change is instituted, then I would bet that those who have been posting serious, worthy questions will mostly take the plunge and register. They will be able to post "Pro" questions. And those who have been posting frivolous questions will quit. Problem solved.

[Edited at 2005-04-21 19:44]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 02:36
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Totally agree Apr 18, 2005

Dear Fuad,

I tracked your postings in the other thread -- and I totaly agree. First, the questions asked by non-registered people are not always simple. Second, I think such askers should pay a little (really small!) amount of money for their questions. Rather, for the service they get.

The only fact I see which prevents from this is that there are quite many countries on the globe when it's simply impossible to pay a small sum. There was another interesting thread about it. Take such large countries as Russia or Ukraine. I just cannot pay sums like $0.50 or $1.00 even if wish. PayPal is not operating in Ukraine, as well as Moneybookers; the later operates in Russia, though, but not PayPal. How on earth I can send this buck to help the site? That's the problem...

Anyway, I'm all for to make asking questions in kudoZ for money for occasional askers. It will help the site to develop, first of all, which is the main point.

Fuad Yahya wrote:
Non-registered users still have the choice to post questions. That is the problem. To resolve the problem, that choice needs to be taken away. They should be required to register (and preferably pay) in order to post questions. If this change is instituted, then I would be that those who have been posting serious, worthy questions will mostly take the plunge and register. They will be able to post "Pro" questions. And those who have been posting frivolous questions will quit. Problem solved.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 19:36
SITE FOUNDER
Right, Lien; many questions marked "non-PRO" should in fact be marked "PRO" Apr 18, 2005

Several issues have been raised in this thread. I will address only Lien's for now.

Lien, you make a good and timely point. Many questions that are classified as non-PRO should actually be classified as PRO.

You noticed that in some places we have gone from the EASY/PRO distinction to PRO/Non-PRO. We will do this throughout the site. Also, to further encourage more frequent use of the "PRO" category, the definitions of PRO and non-PRO levels will soon be revised. Here is a more complete description of each:

PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by professional translators or that are judged suitable for professional translators or specialists.

Non-PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by people who are not professional translators, or that are judged suitable for people who are bilingual but who do not necessarily translate professionally.

Whenever there is doubt, the question should be marked PRO.

Lien, each of the question you list should be PRO. Non-PRO is for "How are you?", "Happy birthday", "Welcome to Paris!" and the like.

We will announce this change in the forums and newsletter shortly. Please help to put word out! Thanks.


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 01:36
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Default Apr 18, 2005

Why not to put all the questions under "pro" on the asker-window by default, so it will be simpler. The rare questions very easy would be much easier to change if necessary, as they are more and more complex questions than before and not so much easy questions as it used to be.

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 19:36
SITE FOUNDER
"PRO" is already the default category for logged-in members. Apr 18, 2005

lien wrote:

Why not to put all the questions under "pro" on the asker-window by default, so it will be simpler. The rare questions very easy would be much easier to change if necessary, as they are more and more complex questions than before and not so much easy questions as it used to be.


Already, if you are logged in, "PRO" is the default. If you are not logged in, "Non-PRO" is the default. I think this is how it should be.


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Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:36
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Require askers to register Apr 18, 2005

I fully support the idea of requiring askers to be registered in order to post questions. If an unregistered asker is a translator and using the site for translation help, the translator's questions are Pro questions, yet are automatically classified non-Pro.

Perhaps earlier suggestions of a separation between Kudoz for professional translators and other Kudoz questions should be implemented. Translators using the site for translation help would be required to register. Others could ask non-Pro questions without registering. If an unregistered asker posts a Pro level question, the asker should be made aware of the Pro/non-Pro distinction and requested to register in order to post the Pro question.


Michele Fauble


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xxxsarahl
Local time: 16:36
English to French
+ ...
Happy birthday? Apr 18, 2005

I agree with Lien that more questions should indeed be PRO.

Now, how about redirecting the askers who need a translation for "Happy Birthday" or "Welcome to Paris" to Babelfish or an online dictionary? They don't need the help of pros to find that kind of answer. I think these askers don't really understand what proz is about. A nudge in the right direction would help them see the light, and would probably boost the site and the community's image.

FWIW

Sarah


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 01:36
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
log in Apr 18, 2005

Oh, I see. Yes, it would be logic but it does not work like this in the practique.

I think we could resolve partly a problem and maybe others at the same time. I see that more and more on other sites : proz could be free to look at the questions, look at the forums but to ask a question or to write in the forum you should be logged in. It is so everywhere now on grouplists and forums and sites like this with questions and forums.

It wouldn't prive any one from anything, the registering would be free of course, but you would be only need one default for many things. People could use any computer to log in and it could be a way to manage your statistcs and the traffic.



[Edited at 2005-04-19 01:15]


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Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:36
Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
new definitions still confusing for askers who don't pay attn Apr 18, 2005

Henry wrote:
PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by professional translators or that are judged suitable for professional translators or specialists.

Non-PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by people who are not professional translators, or that are judged suitable for people who are bilingual but who do not necessarily translate professionally.


As we know, humans have a very short attention span. In my kudoz experience most askers who don't bother to register don't bother to read (all) the instructions either. Given this, I think these definitions are unlikely to improve correct categorisation as long as non-registered members can ask questions (or as long as their questions are set to non-pro by default).

The reason for this is that you don't have to be a professional translator to ask a question which requires the help of one. Since people are likely to just read the first part or skim-read I believe those who are not familiar with the kudoz system will continue to ask "non-pro questions" given these definitons.

I feel it may be a lot better to change the definitions to something like (in this order):

NON-PRO: This category is reserved for questions like
-How do I say... "How are you?", "I love you", "Newspaper" in Language X?. Questions which are more difficult must be classified as PRO.

PRO: This category is for all questions except those described above.

If in doubt please mark your question as PRO; if it is deemed too easy for this category it will be re-classified by a more experienced member.

As things stand I upgrade questions to PRO regularly but can't recall the last time I felt a question had to be downgraded to EASY. Another aspect of this is that Non-PRo questions are likely to get even less attention now, which means that less people will look at them -> less chance of them being upgraded to PRO where they belong. Perhaps this is the in-built penalty system for non-registered users...I think mandatory registration, as described elsewhere in the thread, would be significantly better, though I do not approve of the small payments idea.


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 02:36
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Fully agree with Konstantin Apr 19, 2005

Everyone has made some good points, however, I agree with Konstantin Kisin the most.

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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:36
French to English
Non registered users etc. - Can we have a poll? Apr 19, 2005

The issues of Pro vs Easy / registered vs non-registered users etc have been batted around before, and the truth is nothing ever really changes that addresses many of the points raised.

Sure, stuff gets tinkered with (easy -> non-Pro, changes to defaults, changes to the scoring system) but I'm not sure that a) that addresses the issues that get raised time and time again and b) I'm not sure (I haven't read every single forum posting ever) that some of the changes were things people even wanted.

One of the reasons that I have never gone platinum is, in fact, that these changes occur with no consultation. I like to know what I'm paying for, and that the service(s) paid for will stay the same or similar, unless I'm made fully aware that the majority of other subscribers *want* the change in question, in which case if I don't like it, I can take my business elsewhere.

So, would it not be possible to set up a poll or two to see what direction the people who USE kudoz want it to take? Just simple yes/no questions? e.g.

Should non-registered users be able to ask questions?

If they are allowed to ask questions, should they count for points?

If they are allowed to ask questions, would you like to see a filtering option whereby you, as an individual, could choose to ignore all postings by "non-registereds"? (This is compromise suggestion I've made before which should suit those who share the view that it should be free to anyone to ask anything, and those who find a great deal of non-registered questions annoying and trivial)

Other "service providers" sollicit their customers' opinions in a measurable way all the time - why not ProZ?


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 20:36
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
On surveys and referendums Apr 19, 2005

Charlie Bavington wrote:

One of the reasons that I have never gone platinum is, in fact, that these changes occur with no consultation. I like to know what I'm paying for, and that the service(s) paid for will stay the same or similar, unless I'm made fully aware that the majority of other subscribers *want* the change in question, in which case if I don't like it, I can take my business elsewhere.

So, would it not be possible to set up a poll or two to see what direction the people who USE kudoz want it to take? Just simple yes/no questions? ...



Service providers sometimes perform opinion polls to get a feedback on users' preferences, but then decide what to implement and how to do it based on their own criteria.

These are opinion surveys, nor binding referendums.

And the results of these surveys are rarely made public (why share this information with the competence?).

Should such survey be conducted only among Platinum members, excluding non-paying members?

Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto


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