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PRO/NON-PRO questions
Thread poster: Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes

Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:14
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
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Apr 27, 2005

I just answered a question on periarticular and articular disorders classified as NON-PRO. It doesn’t make sense to me that now I have to either contact the moderator or vote to reclassify it as PRO and hope that other members do the same so that it can be changed.

In the past, a simple click would have solved the problem. It just adds more steps to the whole process. Less is more, folks…at least in my book.


Sormane Gomes


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 11:14
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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A possible solution Apr 27, 2005

Sormane Gomes wrote:
I just answered a question on periarticular and articular disorders classified as NON-PRO. It doesn’t make sense to me that now I have to either contact the moderator or vote to reclassify it as PRO and hope that other members do the same so that it can be changed.
In the past, a simple click would have solved the problem. It just adds more steps to the whole process. Less is more, folks…at least in my book.


With the recent shift to Pro points weighting much more, I found it very reasonable, that a single member (except of a moderator) cannot simply switch between "Pro/non-Pro". Otherwise it could lead to a potential cheating. The current option of having 3 votes to reclassify a question seems quite nice to me.

From the other hand, even being one of those members who were "lobbying" the change in the previous definition of "Easy/Pro" question, I have to admit that the current system still doesn't solve the problem.

First of all, the great majority of ProZ members who are professional translators do not read forums or news, and so continue to mark their questions according to their own judgement. In my pairs we are currently explaining the new definitions to the askers again and again.

Second, non-registered members still ask their questions as "Non-Pro" by default, but their questions often are really difficult.
Gathering the needed 3 votes is not always that easy.

Third, I was really fascinated by the recent proposal of Fuad Yahya:

http://www.proz.com/post/220087#220087

On my personal opinion, the best way now is to banish the idea of the division between "Pro" and "non-Pro" question -- it causes too much confusion however precise we define the difference -- and to switch the occasional outsiders to another site (nonproZ.com) where they would be able to get help without assigning points, etc.

The idea of having a "non-point" zone at proZ is not new, but now we have a nice way to implement it in practice.

Thank you again, Fuad!

[Edited at 2005-04-27 16:56]


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NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 04:14
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MODERATOR
I like it, Kirill Apr 27, 2005

I think our membership has grown to a level where we can make this distinction, in order to serve the needs of two legitimate groups who may not need or want to work together, given their veyr different needs.

My two loonies,

Nancy


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 11:14
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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Not mentioning... Apr 27, 2005

NancyLynn wrote:
I think our membership has grown to a level where we can make this distinction, in order to serve the needs of two legitimate groups who may not need or want to work together, given their veyr different needs.


... not mentioning, that the Game includes tricky plays around voting Pro-non-Pro.

Yes, I think we are mature enough to recognise really "non-Pro" questions and sincere enough to move such questions to a separate non-ponts zone where they belong to.

Also, I really miss the squash option. Maybe we should raise the points barrier (not 500, but, say, 1000 kudoZ pts) for the squash option, but we do need it. Otherwise we need thrice more moderators to monitor kudoZ...


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:14
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Back to my point... Apr 27, 2005

My answer was chosen, only two people (including me) voted to reclassify the question, and now I have to send an email to the moderator. It's just extra work.

Sormane Gomes


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
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I strongly disbelieve in this Apr 27, 2005

Dear all,

All registered users of ProZ.com registered because they see great advantages in belonging to this diverse community of pros and non-pros.
People answer questions because they enjoy helping/learning AND getting some sort of thank you, called KudoZ points.
These KudoZ points can become very valuable as many of us know.

If you shuffle so-called non professionals into some sort of non-professional corner (NonProZ.com) many would certainly feel insulted and lose interest.
If you add to it that no points would be given a great impetus to answer would be lost.

Therefore, I am strongly against these ideas.

I have always believed that the perennial problem with the distinction PRO-NonPRO is best solved by abolishing the distinction. The answerers should decide if the question is difficult or not AND interesting enough (Sorry Henry!).
I sincerely believe that the community is mature enough to handle this by itself.

With best wishes

Mats


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 11:14
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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Just a thought Apr 27, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:
If you shuffle so-called non professionals into some sort of non-professional corner (NonProZ.com) many would certainly feel insulted and lose interest.


I know at least two very good translators who dropped kudoZ because they tired of the point system and the kudoZ fights which it implies. However they stated that they are ready to be back if there is a non-point system.

The same thought was stated by many members at forums.


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:14
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Amen. Apr 27, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:

I have always believed that the perennial problem with the distinction PRO-NonPRO is best solved by abolishing the distinction. The answerers should decide if the question is difficult or not AND interesting enough (Sorry Henry!).
I sincerely believe that the community is mature enough to handle this by itself.




Amen.


Sormane


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Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
Arabic
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All registered (and paid) members are by definition repsonsible professionals Apr 27, 2005

Mats Wiman wrote:

All registered users of ProZ.com registered because they see great advantages in belonging to this diverse community of pros and non-pros. People answer questions because they enjoy helping/learning AND getting some sort of thank you, called KudoZ points.
These KudoZ points can become very valuable as many of us know.



That is incontrovertible. The key word here is "registered." If the users are registered, and especially if they are paid, then the advantages they see in joining ProZ and participating in KudoZ are typically professional advantages, and their behavior is typically disciplined and responsible. Practically all of their questions are of professional level, even if they vary in difficulty. They all merit reward.

The issue, however, is the multitudes of unregistered users, unlogged (but registered) users, and a number of registered users who do not consider membership in ProZ worth paying for.

Like their professional counterparts, these users also see great advantages in belonging and participating, but the advantages they see are qualitatively different, and their mode of behavior is clearly different. As I stated many times, such users are not bad people; they are just in the wrong place, being expected to participate under the wrong set of restrictions.

KudoZ, being a venue for professionals, is subject to some rules of play that have proven valuable. We have often seen that when these rules are not rigorously and consistently followed, the game degenerates to chaos. Professionals who have joined for professional reasons rarely have any difficulty complying with the rules of play. But it makes no sense to invite nonprofessionals and then subject them to the rigors of our rules when we know that (1) their reasons for participating are not served by these rules, and (2) we have no way of enforcing the rules on faceless, nameless individuals anyway.

It is for this reason that KdudoZ should be made open for the participation of anyone who is willing to register and pay annual dues (a minimal level should be instituted; I had suggested $12 per year before, but now I see that that might be way too low; perhaps $20 per year is reasonable). Anyone who registers and pays annual dues should be considered a professional linguist with professional intent, and should be expected to exercise the requisite level of discipline and responsibility.

But all others should be sent over to where they can thrive and be deliriously happy: a nonprofessional space operating under nonprofessional rules of play.


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Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:14
English to Spanish
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Abolish the Difference Apr 27, 2005

I have not seen any rational criteria used in determining whether a question is Pro or Non-Pro, especially since the classification is determined by the asker, who is the person least qualified for making such a judgment. Some Non-Pro questions are actually quite difficult and other Pro questions can be quite easy.

I agree with those colleagues who say this distinction should be abolished.


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:14
Member
English to Spanish
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My view Apr 27, 2005

Fuad Yahya wrote:

The issue, however, is the multitudes of unregistered users, unlogged (but registered) users, and a number of registered users who do not consider membership in ProZ worth paying for.

Like their professional counterparts, these users also see great advantages in belonging and participating, but the advantages they see are qualitatively different, and their mode of behavior is clearly different. As I stated many times, such users are not bad people; they are just in the wrong place, being expected to participate under the wrong set of restrictions.

It is for this reason that KdudoZ should be made open for the participation of anyone who is willing to register and pay annual dues (a minimal level should be instituted; I had suggested $12 per year before, but now I see that that might be way too low; perhaps $20 per year is reasonable). Anyone who registers and pays annual dues should be considered a professional linguist with professional intent, and should be expected to exercise the requisite level of discipline and responsibility.



This posting refers only to registered non-paying members, not to questions from non-logged askers.

Henry has every right to provide differential services to paying and non-paying members.

On the other hand, we shouldn't mix issues that don't belong together.

There is no correlation between paying a membership and being professional.

Calling non-professional a colleague because he/she is not paying a site membership is, in my view, utterly wrong and unfair.

Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto


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Elena Petelos  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:14
Member (2004)
English to Greek
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:-) Apr 28, 2005

Sormane Gomes wrote:

I just answered a question on periarticular and articular disorders classified as NON-PRO. It doesn’t make sense to me that now I have to either contact the moderator or vote to reclassify it as PRO and hope that other members do the same so that it can be changed.

In the past, a simple click would have solved the problem. It just adds more steps to the whole process. Less is more, folks…at least in my book.


Sormane Gomes


You are absolutely right, but there are far more interesting things going on with the new system. Imagine this. You answer a question that is asked as a PRO question. The other person answering the same question happens to be a moderator. The asker selects your answer and three weeks later you find that the moderator in question -which also happened to provide an answer for the same question- decided that this question was easy to start with and decided to reclassify it as Non-Pro post-grading.

The moderator's explanation to me was that any person with a dictionary and basic English skills -obviously not the asker, which happens to be a well-known professional (platinum) and in the top ten translators (language combination in question)- could have answered this question correctly and I could contact another moderator if I disagreed with the reclassification.

What exactly do you do then??

Write to another moderator, or start voting?





[Edited at 2005-04-28 02:58]


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:14
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Good faith Apr 28, 2005

elena petelos wrote:

You are absolutely right, but there are far more interesting things going on with the new system. Imagine this. You answer a question that is asked as a PRO question. The other person answering the same question happens to be a moderator. The asker selects your answer and three weeks later you find that the moderator in question -which also happened to provide an answer for the same question- decided that this question was easy to start with and decided to reclassify it as Non-Pro post-grading.

The moderator's explanation to me was that any person with a dictionary and basic English skills -obviously not the asker, which happens to be a well-known professional (platinum) and in the top ten translators (language combination in question)- could have answered this question correctly and I could contact another moderator if I disagreed with the reclassification.

What exactly do you do then??



My advise?
Assume good faith.
Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto


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Elena Petelos  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:14
Member (2004)
English to Greek
+ ...
:-) Apr 29, 2005

two2tango wrote:



My advise?
Assume good faith.
Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto



Thank you very much for your advice, but I am not questioning the intention of the moderator, but the actual fact the change has taken place. I do not consider this to be an issue of good, or bad faith. I consider this a "technical" if you will, more than an "ethical" dilemma, if by three -any- three votes a question can be changed, you request from the person that originally posted and 2-3 or 100 other people -if it the question is so important- to vote, so that the question is changed. So can indeed any three other people (or "registered users"), ad infinitum!
This forum I believe is on whether we should have the ability to switch pro to non-pro and vice versa, and who else has the ability to do this for us.

Let's say that a question is medical, which was not the case here- and it is classified as easy, if I answer 10 of those per day, do I have to call a moderator 10 times? Or should I notify 30 colleagues with medical backgrounds? What exactly is easy and difficult and who determines it? What for me is ridiculously easy, because it happens to be a question in fields related to my background, for someone else is extremely difficult. Who decides it? Any three people? Me? A moderator?
What happens if 20 questions are asked by unlogged askers as pro questions, but in my opinion they are easy (and vice versa), do I vote? Do I, indeed, yet again call a moderator?

Do I in fact call the moderator, before I even give my answer? Because we all take pleasure in answering and helping out if and as much as we can, but indeed, since the new directory is in place as well, pro questions play a role in the ranking system, easy questions none.

Kind Regards

Elena

[Edited at 2005-04-29 21:24]


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:14
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Excellent point. Apr 29, 2005

[quote]elena petelos wrote:


Let's say that a question is medical, which was not the case here- and it is classified as easy, if I answer 10 of those per day, do I have to call a moderator 10 times? Or should I notify 30 colleagues with medical backgrounds? What exactly is easy and difficult and who determines it? What for me is ridiculously easy, because it happens to be a question in fields related to my background, for someone else is extremely difficult. Who decides it? Any three people? Me? A moderator?
What happens if 20 questions are asked by unlogged askers as pro questions, but to my opinion they are easy (and vice versa), do I vote? Do I, indeed, yet again call a moderator?

Do I in fact call the moderator, before I even answer and give my answer? Because we all take pleasure in answering and helping out if and as much as we can, but indeed, since the new directory is in place as well, pro questions play a role in the ranking system, easy questions none.



Excellent point.


Sormane


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