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Is 'Cerebrovascular Diseases' a PRO or NONPRO question? ('PRO')
Thread poster: Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes

Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:24
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
May 4, 2005

According to Henry’s definition of both posted in one previous posting and discussion, it should be PRO, but the moderator says that it is NONPRO and will not change it.

“PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by professional translators or that are judged suitable for professional translators or specialists.

Non-PRO: This category is intended for term questions that are asked by people who are not professional translators, or that are judged suitable for people who are bilingual but who do not necessarily translate professionally.

Whenever there is doubt, the question should be marked PRO.

Lien, each of the question you list should be PRO. Non-PRO is for "How are you?", "Happy birthday", "Welcome to Paris!" and the like.”

http://www.proz.com/topic/31428


I’m going to stop answering NONPRO questions if I have to go through this hassle to get my points. It doesn’t seem that there is a clear definition of what they should entail.


Yes, I am here to help but also to benefit from a system created where PRO questions allow me to get more work and more clients.

This is very frustrating.


Sormane Gomes


[Edited at 2005-05-04 21:21]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-05-05 17:06]


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:24
SITE FOUNDER
It is PRO May 4, 2005

Obviously a PRO question. Must have been a misunderstanding. Please enter a support request for this type of thing in the future.

Thanks.


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 13:24
Partial member
Spanish
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My opinion May 4, 2005

In my opinion this is a PRO question. It's not a very difficult term but still it's a PRO question. It seems that now, Henry marked this question as PRO.

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Jane Lamb-Ruiz  Identity Verified
French to English
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ditto re Pro May 4, 2005

Hello Sormane

I have had similar experiences recently. One question was a supposedly simple French grammar question. Yes, for someone who is fluent, the question was not that hard, for someone who is not, it was difficult. Ergo, according to Henry's definition, it was pro. Yet several answerers questioned by voting for it to be pro.

I would like to be able to flip the question to pro. Given Henry's definition, I feel it would be OK for those with high levels of expertise to make questions pro. I am sorry this has not become a moderator thing. I thought that I was doing pretty well in changing questions to Pro when necessary and also enjoyed being entitled to do so.

I wish the old system were back.

Cheers
Jane


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:24
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
pro or non-pro May 4, 2005

Hi Sormane.
Questions that can easily be found in a dictionary can also be classified as non-pro. Is a professional translator's help absolutely necessary for the translation of the term? Then it should be classified as pro. Can somebody who doesn't specialize in medicine or who is not a translator look it up in a dictionary or on the web and quickly find it? Then I'd say it's non-pro.

This particular question looks like a "pro" question to me. But perhaps someone who specializes in medical translation might find this easy. In any case, when there is a disagreement between a member and a moderator regarding the level of a KudoZ question, what the member can do is contact the moderator of the opposite language pair, simply to get a second opinion. Or enter a support request.

Maria


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:24
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Henry. May 4, 2005

Henry, I appreciate your quick response and thank you for changing it to PRO.

But I have to add that I don’t have time to be chasing down moderators or the support team by sending them several emails. And quite frankly, I don’t feel like playing this game of having my request denied and then “appeal” again through another moderator and so on. I answer several questions a day and the wrongly-defined-as-NONPRO questions do not seem to be curtailing.

The term mentioned above is easy to me because medical is my specialty, but it was not to the asker. This is a subjective matter but the rule cannot be so. The rule has to be clear and abided by all. It’s that simple to me.

I don’t understand, as Jane mentioned, why we can’t do it ourselves.

Why not create a system where we’re allowed to change it to PRO and vice versa and have the moderator monitor them and change it back to what it was if necessary?



Sormane Gomes


[Edited at 2005-05-04 22:05]


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 13:24
Partial member
Spanish
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Vote as PRO/Non PRO May 4, 2005

There is a button to vote the question as PRO/Non PRO. I thought this was used to change the classification of the terms. Instead of going back an forth according to everybody's different point of view about one particular question, we could change it without having to rely on a moderator, as long as enough people has voted for either PRO or Non PRO.

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Todd Field  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:24
Member (2003)
Portuguese to English
No PRO/NO-PRO designation could be a solution May 4, 2005

Interesting discussion.

I know this has been suggested before, but... why not do away with the PRO/NO-PRO distinction altogether? It seems like a somewhat meaningless extra step.

This is a serious site targeted at professional linguists. Thus, all questions should theoretically be PRO.

Personally I get bummed out when I see love letters, happy birthdays and so on posted as KudoZ questions. One could argue that it's destructive to our profession.

Why not get rid of the PRO/NO-PRO categories in an overall site cleansing process?

Todd


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 13:24
English to Russian
+ ...
One tricky thing May 5, 2005

Maria Karra wrote:

Questions that can easily be found in a dictionary can also be classified as non-pro.
Maria


Maria, respectfully, you hit a sore spot. The illusive easiness offered by countless sources leads to the worst consequences - some people would blindly pick the term from the dictionary/glossary... and then we share examples of "great translations" hardly knowing whether to laugh or cry.

I'm sure that many of us are familliar with the situation when we accept the job in the area of our specialty and bump into some term/description that has nothing or very little to do directly with the subject. For example, some executive summary or a report supplemented with biographies, and one on those might contain a detailed description of the achievements of a physicist. For me, for example, that would be medical terms, the subject that scares me to death, I can't, and with my "knowledge" in this field I have no right, to make my own choices and I feel responsible to double-check regardless of the whole library of dictionaries, especially when the latter offer a choice. I suppose for any medical specialist most of it would be easy, but no medical term per se can possible be attributed to NON PRO. IMHO.

In fact, a good deal of the most interesting PRO questions I've encountered did not require any dictionaries at all, rather a different kind of research because they had a lot to do with what would be the essence of our profession - understanding the nuances, style, "the way with words", knowledge of local specifics etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should be patient with those definitions of PRO and NONPRO, and I'm inclined to move most of them to PRO. It's a mystery to me how to draw a clear distinction unless it's Hello, Have a nice day, Cloud or Napkin.

My problem is different - there are many instances when it is obvious that there were no attempts at all to find own solutions. No tried references, no suggestions, no context, just a term and "give me". I think that in "inclear" cases askers can and should prove that their questions are PRO, that he/she is facing a choice driven by the context.

What really throws me off the chair is when I see questions like "voice loop" or "high-gain antenna" and another 5-10 like that in a row, go to the "translator's" profile and discover that "telecommunications" is the first word under Specialization. Boy, I'm getting mad even writing about it. Stuff like that really gives Proz's reputation a blow in a stomach.





[Edited at 2005-05-05 06:27]


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 13:24
English to Russian
+ ...
No easy way out May 5, 2005

Todd and Monica Field wrote:

Why not get rid of the PRO/NO-PRO categories in an overall site cleansing process?

Todd


It is my understanding that NONPRO is (or should be) some kind of charity, and I don't mind it at all - I assume this is primarily for someone who does not make money translating, just hit a foreign word for whatever reason. I have no idea how to say Hello in Chinese but what if once in my life I would need to? For example, say, I'm not a translator, just an English-speaking person corresponding with a Chinese person using common language and I want to be courteous and greet him in his own language (in this case I'll have to copy and paste Chinese font). I'd be eternally grateful to a site like Proz for such help. That is where those "simple" question come from, but greeting should not turn into the entire letter:-). I would always answer questions like hi - bye, those ones have the priority right to show up in NONPRO, it is so obvious that they come from the strangers to the translation world, and there is no need to ridicule such askers.

NONPRO category stops unregistered users from abusing Kudoz - I guess when moved to PRO the question becomes unaccessible to an unregistered asker, right? I'm sure that's how many PRO questions get there, to the NONPRO - registration takes time. Such guests are simply taking their chances for a free exploitation of professionals, and most of them get what they want - many of us can't refrain from showing-off our knowledge without regard to the damage we do to the site and money-making aspect of our profession (guilty as charged in a couple of instances).

Discriminate! (Ouch, hope I'm not in trouble)


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 20:24
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
There is a way out ;-) May 5, 2005

Dear Irene,

There was a great way out proposed by Fuad Yahya: he created www.nonproz.com and proposed it to the proZ staff as an additional site to move all Non-Pro question there. No need to squash, no points (I know a lot of proZians have been dreaming of a non-point area for quite a long time) -- just the sincere help for everyone who is in need of translating a simple phrase or word. At the same time, it would allow to eliminate Pro/non-Pro dividing line which is `obviously vague' and subjective, and thus avoids a strict definition.

The subject of this topic shows clearly how much problem we still have when it comes to classifying questions as Pro or Non-Pro -- even now after the definitions have changed. Voting system is great but still it does not guarantee anything. As the topic shows we may end discussing each and every arguable kudoZ question on fora or in our private correspondence with moderators or the support...

[Edited at 2005-05-05 08:35]


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Lamprini Kosma  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:24
English to Greek
+ ...
Definition of a pro-question/help May 5, 2005

I totally agree with Henry's definition of PRO/non-PRO questions, and obviously there needed to be a way of filtering the many easy questions that are asked by unlogged askers, such as "love", "kisses", and all kinds of names. However, I am not sure that a question can only be PRO if a translator's help is absolutely necessary, as it is equally possible to have a pro question that for example needs the skills of a bilingual doctor or scientist. Also, if a term can be found in a dictionary, this doesn't mean that a question is non-PRO; for most technical and medical terms there are 3, 4 or even more renditions for each term, and we all know that most dictionaries do not provide enough contextualized examples. The word "thrill" for example can be easily found in several medical dictionaries (cardiology entry), but translating the term into Greek is very difficult. Moreover, if a registered user (fellow translator) asks, I fail to see why s/he would require NON professional help.

I think that it would not be possible time-wise to enter for each question in a linguistic debate on what is pro and what not and certainly there are several pairs in which I participate that have no moderator at all. Eventually, it would be possible to monitor abuse, since the new system records every change and the option could be returned to members with sufficient expertise.


[Edited at 2005-05-05 10:38]


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:24
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
pro / non-pro May 5, 2005

Hi Lamprini.
I think we all agree that the classification is often subjective, and that's why we are having discussions such as this one
I agree with you, Lamprini.
One comment though, as to why a professional translator may ask an "easy" term here on ProZ. It may very well happen; one reason I can think of is that the translator has a very tight deadline (don't we all know how that feels) and in his panic the term just doesn't "come to him". Or maybe he knows that the term is easy and knows its equivalent, but simply wants to know if translation A or translation B is used more frequently.
Another example from my experience: I recently translated a text (from English into Greek) which included one Arabic name. I entered a KudoZ question asking how to pronounce the name so that I could transliterate it in Greek. This was obviously an easy question to the people who are willing to answer questions in Arabic < > English, but it wasn't for me. Yet, I consider myself a pro. (The name appeared transliterated in English, so I wouldn't know how to spell it in Arabic in order to look it up.)
There may be other reasons.


Lamprini Kosma wrote:
However, I am not sure that a question can only be PRO if a translator's help is absolutely necessary, as it is equally possible to have a pro question that for example needs the skills of a bilingual doctor or scientist.


Right. A professional translator or specialist's help, I should have written (which is basically the definition given on KudoZ forms, nothing new here).


I think that it would not be possible time-wise to enter for each question in a linguistic debate on what is pro and what not and certainly there are several pairs in which I participate that have no moderator at all. Eventually, it would be possible to monitor abuse, since the new system records every change and the option could be returned to members with sufficient expertise.


I completely agree with you and Sormane that we can't possibly get into a debate on what is pro or not for each question, and yet I don't know what a good solution would be. How do we monitor incorrect classification? Should moderators do it? What happens with those language pairs that don't have a moderator? What happens with those pairs where hundreds of questions are asked per day? Is it fair to ask those moderators to monitor changes?
What do you suggest?
Maria

[Edited at 2005-05-05 11:12]


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:24
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
welcoming non-pro questions May 5, 2005

IreneN wrote:
I would always answer questions like hi - bye, those ones have the priority right to show up in NONPRO, it is so obvious that they come from the strangers to the translation world, and there is no need to ridicule such askers.


I couldn't have said it better, Irene.
Maria


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xxxMihai Badea  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
Pro / non-Pro May 5, 2005

Hi!

I think the Pro/non-Pro distinction should be given up. It causes too much trouble.
On the other hand, I’d like to ask you if categorizing questions like "Hello!", “Happy Birthday!”, “love” or “kisses” as General/Conversation/Greetings/Letters should not be enough. Why should we also call them Easy or non-Pro?

Well, maybe I’m trying to simplify too much. But anyway, there must be a better solution than what we have now.


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