| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | disagreeing vs being neutral if you have suggested another answer Thread poster: Daniela Zambrini
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Kirill Semenov 
Ukraine
Local time: 05:06
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Exactly my approach | May 24, 2005 |
Selçuk Budak wrote:
Suggesting an alternative answer is by necessity a "disagree" for the existing answers. Therefore, it is superfulous to put a "disagree" for any previous answers.
I don't usually use "disagree" either and keep the option as an extreme measure. Usually I express my doubts with a "neutral". In the same vein, I usually put my confidence level at 3. I don't like the confidence indicator at all, but the reason is the same: even with "I love you" we cannot be 100% sure. I belive, that there is not such thing as a 100% correct translation, it may be 99.(9)% probable, but still... So, my disagree may also be 0.(0)% wrong.
| | | | | If it will prevent the asker from choosing a wrong answer | May 24, 2005 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
Even if I have suggested an answer to a question, I disagree if I think a suggested answer is plainly wrong. Putting neutral would suggest that the answer might be acceptable, or that I am unsure it is completely wrong.
Michele Fauble
I agree with Michele. We know that, unfortunately, not everybody reads the context before suggesting an answer. Sometimes an translation suggested may be right, but in the given context is wrong.
In a case like this being neutral, in my opinion, would not be acceptable and it would be misleading to the asker--specially when there have been a lot of agrees. Even if I have submitted another answer I would disagree, I don't see why this would make any difference.
As Anabel said, there are cases, like leterary questions, that there could be more than just one right answer. But if an answer is plainly unacceptable, I'd disagree.
I've seen closed questions where the accepted answer (with many agrees) was obviously wrong, of course the asker is not to blame, but if someone had disagreed, that wrong answer wouldn't be in the glossaries.
We all make mistakes, but we're professionals. So I don't understand why some people take the disagrees as something personal.
[Edited at 2005-05-24 19:25]
| | | | | Sorry, Selçuk, but I disagree | May 24, 2005 |
Selçuk Budak wrote:
Suggesting an alternative answer is by necessity a "disagree" for the existing answers. Therefore, it is superfulous to put a "disagree" for any previous answers.
I'm sorry, but I think this is not true: giving a different answer does not necessarily mean you are disagreeing with all other answers given: a "disagree" means "I'm sorry, this is wrong", while giving an alternate answer may mean things like "the other answers given are correct, but you may want to consider also this".
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Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
I'm sorry, but I think this is not true: giving a different answer does not necessarily mean you are disagreeing with all other answers given: a "disagree" means "I'm sorry, this is wrong", while giving an alternate answer may mean things like "the other answers given are correct, but you may want to consider also this".
Yes, Riccardo, suggesting an answer and thinking that your point deserves a seperate answer is a disagreement with other answers however on nuances. Otherwise, why should you need both a separate answer and a "disagree vote" cast on other answers?
A disagreement is not necessarily an outright negation, or a refutation of other answers. However minute, it is a disagreement, though. This implicit disagreement is inherent in all alternative answers. You simply imply that your answer is more to the point, more accurate, more appropriate for the given context, and "greener" which means that you also imply that other answers are not so accurate, appropriate, etc., and therefore your answer should be selected.
Anyway, if you just have a "this might also be.." kind feeling, instead of posting a separate answer, you can simply put an agreement note to the answer that you find appropriate to the effect that "this may also.." which is the usual practice in my language pair, for example, when pointing to a synonym that seems to have a more frequent or contemporary usage.
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| I agree with Selçuk | May 24, 2005 |
Selçuk Budak wrote:
(...) suggesting an answer and thinking that your point deserves a seperate answer is a disagreement with other answers however on nuances. Otherwise, why should you need both a separate answer and a "disagree vote" cast on other answers?
(...)
Anyway, if you just have a "this might also be.." kind feeling, instead of posting a separate answer, you can simply put an agreement note to the answer that you find appropriate to the effect that "this may also.." which is the usual practice in my language pair, for example, when pointing to a synonym that seems to have a more frequent or contemporary usage.
That's my feeling too. I'm glad but also sorry that I'm not the only one who was puzzled. I still don't want to think that answering and also disagreeing on the same issue is a mere calculation.. .
I imagine we cannot expect everyone to stick to rules or fair-play, but the only way we can promote a fair attitude is to set a good example. So my personal approach will be to EITHER disagree with a suggestion in the comment box OR to answer a question. But that's just my idea, no obligation to follow me
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 19:06
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| It depends on what the meaning of disagree is. | May 24, 2005 |
When I suggest an answer to a question, I am not necessarily disagreeing with all other answers. Other answers may be equally acceptable. It is a well-known fact that in translation there may be several equally good alternatives. I think most askers and answerers understand this and do not consider each suggested answer as a 'disagree' to every other suggested answer. When I disagree, I mean that the answer is not acceptable. I believe others also make this distinction.
Michele Fa... See more When I suggest an answer to a question, I am not necessarily disagreeing with all other answers. Other answers may be equally acceptable. It is a well-known fact that in translation there may be several equally good alternatives. I think most askers and answerers understand this and do not consider each suggested answer as a 'disagree' to every other suggested answer. When I disagree, I mean that the answer is not acceptable. I believe others also make this distinction.
Michele Fauble
[Edited at 2005-08-19 05:45] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 04:06
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | A disagree requires substantiation and an alternative suggestion | May 25, 2005 |
Dear all,
'Disagree' simply means "I disagree" (but also it expresses the conviction that I am in the linguistic position to determine that the suggestion made is wrong in the given context).
I find it rude and unfair to just mark an answer with 'Disagree' and then leave. Logic demands that:
1. You substantiate your disagree. Saying "Not right here" (What is?), "Not idiomatic English" (What is?) or "Never heard before" (Have you heard everything said by eve... See more Dear all,
'Disagree' simply means "I disagree" (but also it expresses the conviction that I am in the linguistic position to determine that the suggestion made is wrong in the given context).
I find it rude and unfair to just mark an answer with 'Disagree' and then leave. Logic demands that:
1. You substantiate your disagree. Saying "Not right here" (What is?), "Not idiomatic English" (What is?) or "Never heard before" (Have you heard everything said by everybody?) DOES NOT SUFFICE. You should be able to exemplify or point to a certain word or phrase to illustrate the error. (The bold part was omitted when posting)
2. If you're 'so knowledgeable' as to stamp someone else's answer with a 'Disagree' you also posess the linguistic ability to deliver a superior suggestion.
If you cannot do the 1 and the 2, you should keep silent and let those who can try to help the asker.
Mats
[Edited at 2005-05-26 06:23] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 19:06
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Disagrees must be justified | May 25, 2005 |
It's not just logic that demands that disagrees be justified, but the Kudoz rules also do so.
5. Peer comments
5.3 - To disagree, one must enter linguistic justification. Personal comments are strictly prohibited.
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Dr. Janos Annus (X)
Hungary
Local time: 04:06
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Disagree + new solution, quite OK | May 25, 2005 |
I just wish to support those who think nothing is wrong with disagreeeing with one proposed solution and posting another one at the same time. They are different "animals" in my view. If one of the suggested solutions is wrong for any reason, then I disagree. Offering another solution is a different matter. It can be because you offer an alternative solution, or one which better fits into the context, but not neccessarily because you disagree with the others. So the disagree and the new pos... See more I just wish to support those who think nothing is wrong with disagreeeing with one proposed solution and posting another one at the same time. They are different "animals" in my view. If one of the suggested solutions is wrong for any reason, then I disagree. Offering another solution is a different matter. It can be because you offer an alternative solution, or one which better fits into the context, but not neccessarily because you disagree with the others. So the disagree and the new post may be totally unrelated. If you disagree, then you disagree. If you have a new solution, then you post it. If you do both then you post both. ▲ Collapse
| | | | tazdog (X)
Spain
Local time: 04:06
Spanish to English
+ ...
| disagree if it's wrong | May 25, 2005 |
I agree with Michele: if another answer is flat-out wrong, I tend to put a disagree, even if I've answered the question myself—-especially if the wrong answer is building up steam with agrees from several enthusiastic-but-clueless individuals.
I remember one particular occasion when I disagreed with a wrong answer (there were no ifs, ands or buts here, I am referring to a black-and-white case, no opinions involved), which had 2 or 3 agrees, and then went on to provide my own answe... See more I agree with Michele: if another answer is flat-out wrong, I tend to put a disagree, even if I've answered the question myself—-especially if the wrong answer is building up steam with agrees from several enthusiastic-but-clueless individuals.
I remember one particular occasion when I disagreed with a wrong answer (there were no ifs, ands or buts here, I am referring to a black-and-white case, no opinions involved), which had 2 or 3 agrees, and then went on to provide my own answer. The person whose answer I disagreed with made a snippy comment to the effect of "you didn't have to disagree, it's enough that you answered yourself.” Sorry, that argument doesn't hold water. In fact, in this particular case, people were agreeing with the word in the title of the question without even looking at the context. As we all know, there is often a bandwagon effect with agrees: certain people blindly go along with whatever answer has already collected a few, and it sometimes takes a disagree to stop that trend and make people look at the question more carefully.
I must admit that I was stung and quite upset by the above incident, so the next time I saw an answer that was blatantly wrong, I ignored it so as not to "offend" the person who had given it and simply posted my own answer. Much to my dismay, the wrong answer (the only other one offered) was chosen. At that point, I posted my disagree, including all the reasons why the answer was wrong. This prompted an e-mail from the asker, upset because she had already sent in the translation, and a peer response from the other answerer, conceding that I was right and asking why I hadn't disagreed before. (Sometimes you just can't win!)
Bottom line: I have decided that the whole idea of not disagreeing so as not to ruffle anyone's feathers is pointless, and is of no help to the asker. If I see a demonstrably incorrect answer, I will reserve the right to disagree, regardless of whether or not I've answered the question myself. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There is a conflict of interest if the disagree voter is proposing another answer | May 25, 2005 |
The intentions behind the disagree vote may be wholesome, but there is no denying the conflict of interest: The voter is in competition with the other answers. The competitive nature of the KudoZ game makes the disagree vote in this situation at least look less credible, if not a cheap shot, regardless of the wholesome intentions of the voter.
In fact, the whole idea of the disagree vote is misguided. If voting is supposed to help the asker choose, then one should vote for the best ... See more The intentions behind the disagree vote may be wholesome, but there is no denying the conflict of interest: The voter is in competition with the other answers. The competitive nature of the KudoZ game makes the disagree vote in this situation at least look less credible, if not a cheap shot, regardless of the wholesome intentions of the voter.
In fact, the whole idea of the disagree vote is misguided. If voting is supposed to help the asker choose, then one should vote for the best answer. If the content of a particular answer is so jarring that a comment is warranted, then posting a comment should be sufficient. The option of voteless comment should be programmed into KudoZ. But that is another topic. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I rarely disagree | May 25, 2005 |
but this week I chose to do it twice, for two different reasons:
1) In the first case the answerer was chasing for KudoZ points, suggesting an answer which was not Italian at all, in that it violated some basic grammar rules;
2) in the second case the answer was clearly misleading and would have caused a serious (and unpleasant) mistake in the translation.
In both cases the answers came from non native speakers whose knowledge of the target language was pr... See more but this week I chose to do it twice, for two different reasons:
1) In the first case the answerer was chasing for KudoZ points, suggesting an answer which was not Italian at all, in that it violated some basic grammar rules;
2) in the second case the answer was clearly misleading and would have caused a serious (and unpleasant) mistake in the translation.
In both cases the answers came from non native speakers whose knowledge of the target language was probably not so advanced. I motivated my *disagree* and I must say I do not feel ashamed of my own views. ▲ Collapse
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Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:06
Spanish to English
| Agree with Michele | May 25, 2005 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
When I suggest an answer to a question, I am not necessarily disagreeing with all other answers. Other answers may be equally acceptable. It is a well-known fact that in translation there may be several equally good alternatives. I think most askers and answerers understand this and do not consider each suggested answer as a 'disagree' to every other suggested answer. When I disagree, I mean that the answer is not acceptable. I believe others also make this distinction.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with an answer and then making a suggestion yourself. Some answers are just not correct for the given context and askers should be made aware of that fact.
However, if you disagree, I don't think you should have to give another suggestion. I have sometimes known that an answer is not correct (sorry to have to say this, but some answers provided by point grabbers and/or non-native speakers just obviously don't work), but not known exactly what the correct term is, and therefore cannot agree with other suggestions made or make one myself. If Kudoz is about helping each other to arrive at the best translation or solution to the problem, and not a game played "just for fun" when we have a few minutes (when I ask a question, I'm usually in desparate need of help and would like to think that people answering are actually serious about their suggestions) then we really shouldn't mind a few disagrees here and there.
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 06:06
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| Nothing personal! | May 25, 2005 |
Derek Gill Franßen wrote: I disagree, if I think it is wrong - even if I have offered a suggestion (the same, of course, goes for agreeing or being neutral). 
I am with you Derek. When/If I disagree, I do not mean to offend a colleague. I just express my notion.
| | | | cmwilliams (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:06
French to English
+ ...
| Agree with Michele and Cindy | May 25, 2005 |
Cindy Chadd wrote:
Bottom line: I have decided that the whole idea of not disagreeing so as not to ruffle anyone's feathers is pointless, and is of no help to the asker. If I see a demonstrably incorrect answer, I will reserve the right to disagree, regardless of whether or not I've answered the question myself.
Exactly. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an answer that's blantantly wrong. Of course it's a different story with questions that are open to interpretation or are a matter of style, and perhaps this is what Daniela was referring to in her orininal posting. As professional translators, we should know the difference between the two so there shouldn't really be any problem.
[Edited at 2005-05-25 09:55]
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