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disagreeing vs being neutral if you have suggested another answer
Thread poster: Daniela Zambrini

Daniela Zambrini  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:16
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
May 24, 2005

Hi, I've been wondering about this issue. I searched old forums with "disagree-neutral-answer" and I don't seem to have found any results, but if the matter has already been discussed please redirect me to previous threads.
I've been noticing that there are a few people (I have not noticed if it's always the same person or just a new general attitude) who post a different answer and also disagree with somebody else's suggestion.
Well, in most cases I imagine a neutral comment is fine, but it seems a bit disloyal to "downgrade" someone else's effort when you are also offering a different solution.
I'm not complaining on a personal basis (in actual fact, I received a neutral comment from another answerer to the same kudoz question and it was perfectly polite and motivated). Neutral is neither for nor against, so I consider it as an appreciation of effort.
What makes me uncomfortable is seeing a suggested answer AND a disagree comment made by the same person.
Does anybody out there feel the same? Or am I seeing a storm in a tea-cup?


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giogi
Local time: 01:16
Well... May 24, 2005

Daniela Zambrini wrote:

Well, in most cases I imagine a neutral comment is fine, but it seems a bit disloyal to "downgrade" someone else's effort when you are also offering a different solution.

I can't see any "disagree" as something as downgrading or being unfair to anybody. A disagreement is just to say: I don't agree.
I think that a "neutral" when you disagree is a kind of "pitiful lie" ...and we don't want show white spots on our fingers. Do we?
If you can justify your "disagree", why not? Sometimes it's almost impossible to justify an opinion sticking to the allowed lenght of a "comment tab"...so a new post can be more efficient and, why not...fair.
Giovanna

[Edited at 2005-05-24 16:49]

[Edited at 2005-05-24 16:49]


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 19:16
German to English
disagreeing vs. neutral May 24, 2005

Daniela Zambrini wrote:

... but it seems a bit disloyal to "downgrade" someone else's effort when you are also offering a different solution.

Neutral is neither for nor against, so I consider it as an appreciation of effort.



Hi Daniela, I agree with you that it's bad form to disagree with an answer when the disagreer has entered his own answer - provided that the person is doing so for the reasons you gave: to increase his chances of getting the points. Sadly, we have such members here.

But some real pros give "disagrees" to other answers simply because they're interested in seeing a good translation result from the whole exercise, and in a healthy professional language pair community, the disagree is understood in this spirit. Disagrees are intended to help the asker and peers decide on the very best solution and help future glossary searchers reach a well-founded conclusion.

A neutral sometimes doesn't send a strong enough message in terms of quality control. Another option is to ignore answers with which one disagrees. I don't think that helps either.

[Edited at 2005-05-24 16:52]


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giogi
Local time: 01:16
Well Kim May 24, 2005

Kim Metzger wrote:

[But some real pros give "disagrees" to other answers simply because they're interested in seeing a good translation result from the whole exercise, and in a healthy professional language pair community, the disagree is understood in this spirit. Disagrees are intended to help the asker and peers decide on the very best solution and help future glossary searchers reach a well-founded conclusion.

.

[Edited at 2005-05-24 16:52]

Of course a basket can also contain "rotten apples", but in the light of what you say above, don't you think that both helping the asker and being interested in seeing a good translation result can include a "disagree" getting along with a new answer?
Giovanna


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Can Altinbay  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:16
Japanese to English
+ ...
My take - depends, but neutral in general May 24, 2005

Giovanna Rampone, PhD wrote:

Kim Metzger wrote:

[But some real pros give "disagrees" to other answers simply because they're interested in seeing a good translation result from the whole exercise, and in a healthy professional language pair community, the disagree is understood in this spirit. Disagrees are intended to help the asker and peers decide on the very best solution and help future glossary searchers reach a well-founded conclusion.

.

[Edited at 2005-05-24 16:52]

Of course a basket can also contain "rotten apples", but in the light of what you say above, don't you think that both helping the asker and being interested in seeing a good translation result can include a "disagree" getting along with a new answer?
Giovanna


It just seems unsportmanlike to both suggest an answer and disagree - in general. Generally, in those cases where I think a comment to another response would be helpful, I use "neutral".

That said, on occasion I see responses that are so far off the mark that I will strongly consider "disagree"ing, and have probably done so a couple of times.


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 19:16
German to English
disagreeing vs. neutral May 24, 2005

Giovanna Rampone, PhD wrote:

Of course a basket can also contain "rotten apples", but in the light of what you say above, don't you think that both helping the asker and being interested in seeing a good translation result can include a "disagree" getting along with a new answer?
Giovanna


Yes, Giovanna, I do. The most well-intentioned members do it.


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Daniela Zambrini  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:16
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
not questioning the system, but puzzled about the attitude May 24, 2005

Kim Metzger wrote:

But some real pros give "disagrees" to other answers simply because they're interested in seeing a good translation result from the whole exercise, and in a healthy professional language pair community, the disagree is understood in this spirit. Disagrees are intended to help the asker and peers decide on the very best solution and help future glossary searchers reach a well-founded conclusion.



I hope I haven't made myself misunderstood: I completely agree with the "disagree" system - - , and any suggestions and comments entered...I often read them even if the questions are not my field and I therefore haven't answered anything. I like to learn new words or solutions. Kudoz glossary search has been a great help and I imagine I would not have found the terms I needed if people had not taken the time to consider each suggestion seriously and professionally.
I was just slightly puzzled at what seemed to me (at times) a borderline attitude, maybe just that tiny bit too far from the community spirit which should be - in my view - the strongest motivation to answer instead of focusing on the point system.


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lanave  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:16
French to Italian
+ ...
Creating an alternative May 24, 2005

Lately I have also remarked this behaviour with regards to some Proz members' answer. I have to say I did not like it.
I think that giving another solution is already an expression of disagreement or neutrality. They sound both as judgemental. In order to avoid all ambiguous behaviours, I would rather replace them with something like "suggestions".


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giogi
Local time: 01:16
Right Daniela! May 24, 2005

Daniela Zambrini wrote:






I was just slightly puzzled at what seemed to me (at times) a borderline attitude, maybe just that tiny bit too far from the community spirit which should be - in my view - the strongest motivation to answer instead of focusing on the point system.

[/quote]
You may be right...well..you're definitely right, but this depends on something too subjective to be spoken about...I personally, (and perhaps it's better to say "personally") write disagree when I disagree and neutral when I'm neutral (even if I'm providing another answer) but sometimes being too straightforward can be a limit...Anyway, thanks for your thread...it's a stimulating topic and I think we all should think it over!
Giovanna


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giogi
Local time: 01:16
Right... but May 24, 2005

lanave wrote:

. In order to avoid all ambiguous behaviours, I would rather replace them with something like "suggestions".

Lets' assume thah someone says "disagree" and he/she rethinks about the questions and works out an answer...You say...he/she could delete the "disagree" and you're right again...Bu my question is: do you really think that a "neutral" is not judgemental?
Franky I don't know!
Giovanna


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Derek Gill Franßen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:16
German to English
+ ...
I disagree... May 24, 2005

I disagree, if I think it is wrong - even if I have offered a suggestion (the same, of course, goes for agreeing or being neutral).

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Anabel Martínez  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:16
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
it depends on so many things.. May 24, 2005

Personally, I rarely disagree, only when I am absolutely sure the answer is not right, even if I have provided an answer.

What if you see one answer which several people just agreed on Wwithout paying much attention to it and it's wrong? We have largely talked about agreeing just for the sake of it, which can be also quite offensive. Maybe if people didn't agree with anything, we could save ourselves some disagree, who knows.

Even though I would disagree in the situation just mentioned, I tend to remain "neutral", specially if I provided another answer (even then, I try to wait and see if someone else just points out what I'd like to comment on in other answers).

Having said all this, I would say that there are some kinds of questions in which I'd totally avoid disagreeing: in literary questions, and questions having to do with style. If I don't like the style of an answer, I shut up and try to come up with a "better" (totally subjective view, as you can see) solution if I can. If not, then, why would I disagree if I can't provide a better solution? And then, that kind of questions are so relative....

I agree with Daniela that disagreeing can be rude sometimes, and also with the fact that if you provide another answer you're already kind of disagreeing with the ones you saw. At least that's my method: I see the answers for questions of my fields, if I agree with one, or two, I just make a comment; if not, I try to think of a better solution.


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Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:16
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Disagrees for wrong answers May 24, 2005

Even if I have suggested an answer to a question, I disagree if I think a suggested answer is plainly wrong. Putting neutral would suggest that the answer might be acceptable, or that I am unsure it is completely wrong.

Michele Fauble


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Angela Arnone  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:16
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
There are nuances May 24, 2005

As with everything ... someone agreed with me yesterday and even reposted my very same answer as an alternative .... See what I mean? There was an explanation of course, but on the surface, it was difficult to perceive.
I may disagree, but have no alternative suggestion.
I may disagree, have an alternative answer and wish to underscore that I feel the proposed answer is wrong.
I may propose an alternative answer without necessarily disagreeing with anyone else - I may just think mine is better or is an alternative.
I may agree and also post an alternative of my own.
I tend to use neutral when I am on the verge of disagreement, but can't justify it (the coward's way out, in some people's opinion, but what alternative do I have?).
I must admit that the aggressive reactions to a "disagree" have stopped me using it unless the answer is indisputably and glaringly wrong and even then, if someone has already disagreed, I move on.
Even neutrals tend to be perceived as negative!
Personally, if I get a "disagree", it does upset me, but I try to be objective, re-read what I've written and if it is wrong, then I cover it up, to avoid anyone being misled, and I also give an agree to the best answer, if there is one.
I've probably missed some aspects, but on the whole I've covered my own perspectives here.
BTW, originally peer grades were anonymous and I used to get a lot more disagrees than I do now ... wonder why!
Angela




[Edited at 2005-05-25 19:52]


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Selçuk Budak  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:16
English to Turkish
+ ...
Suggesting an answer is a "disagree" May 24, 2005

This is a topic that we discussed at length at our local forum (Turkish).

Suggesting an alternative answer is by necessity a "disagree" for the existing answers. Therefore, it is superfulous to put a "disagree" for any previous answers.

Besides, it has a some negative consequences. First, it touches some emotional strings in disagreed answerers which tend to arouse negative reactions. Secondly, a "disagree" is a "minus" grade which substracts from any "agrees" that the disagreed answer may have. This might be an issue for robot grades should the asker fails to deliberately choose an answer. And this might be another factor stirring up negative emotions in disagreed answerer.

Let us take a typical example. Assume that answerers A and B have both equal number of "agrees." Then, if the asker fails to grade any answer, the case is "delegated" to the robot which decides on the basis of number of agrees + the initial confidence level. Now, assume that one of the answerers disagrees with the answer of the other. In this case, equality is disturbed to the advantage of the "disagreer."

This is utterly unfair. My own disagree helps me to be awarded!

Therefore, I adopted the principle of not disagreeing if I also suggested an answer. Instead, I use my own answer area to explain my opinion about the other answers, be it positive or negative. There are good examples in kudoz for our language pair where a number of answerers discuss their answers with supporting links, etc. at length without casting a "disagree vote." This has the added advantage of furnishing additional material to back up your implied disagreement.

And, most important of all, you remain as friends as before with whom you are in disagreement without feeling or creating unnecessary tension.


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