| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Under what circumstances one can "disagree" with a Kudoz answer? Thread poster: Saleh Chowdhury, Ph.D.
|
|---|
Elizabeth Rudin 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:59
Member (2005)
Hungarian to English
+ ...
| Motivation: to help the asker | Jul 3, 2005 |
I agree 100% with Kim, and with his list of quotes from our colleagues’ replies. I think the disagree-neutral-agree system works well and should stay as it is. If we don’t agree with a “disagree”, we can post our reply and state our reasons. What we must avoid, Saleh, is to take things personally. Try to remain objective, even when you think you are treated unfairly. Take a deep breath, or do whatever it takes to calm down, and then post your answer (remembering that the aim is to help t... See more I agree 100% with Kim, and with his list of quotes from our colleagues’ replies. I think the disagree-neutral-agree system works well and should stay as it is. If we don’t agree with a “disagree”, we can post our reply and state our reasons. What we must avoid, Saleh, is to take things personally. Try to remain objective, even when you think you are treated unfairly. Take a deep breath, or do whatever it takes to calm down, and then post your answer (remembering that the aim is to help the asker!) And don’t forget what Henry said somewhere in the Kudoz rules: always assume that your (offending) colleague acted in good faith, and in this context, that (s)he is genuinely convinced (s)he is doing the right thing by disagreeing. This way you will be able to write a calm and objective reply to the unjustified "disagree".
And now I’m afraid I have to “disagree” with almost everything our colleague Balasubramaniam posted at 4.08 am, such as:
“Why then should we suffer further insult from peers when all that we are trying to do is to promote ourselves in quite a legitimate fashion, as per the norms of the site? In my opinion, helping askers to get the right translation is quite incidental from our points of view. We are merely showcasing our talents and skills. If the asker benefits from it, no harm in it, but the real motive is not to help him/her, but to help ourselves. “
This seems completely wrong to me, Bala – most of us are not offering answers to questions to promote ourselves: the aim is TO HELP THE ASKER, which is not “incidental”, as you put it – it is the main objective. If in the process we get points, that is what I would call incidental.
I joined ProzCom earlier this year because I think it is a great place to offer and obtain assistance, to interact with colleagues and be part of the large international community of translators. I am a platinum member because I believe it is only fair to pay for membership, to help with the costs incurred by running such a professional, well organized and extremely helpful site. I was not looking for new clients – I already have more clients than I can cope with, and I have to turn down on average one in three jobs I am offered within my areas of specialization (without counting new clients who contact me through this site, or jobs outside of my specialization). So the majority of us on this site are not trying to promote ourselves by answering questions and amassing points – we are genuinely trying to offer help (I just wish I had more time to spend answering questions and getting involved in forums…) This may be why most of us are not easily offended by unjustified/unfounded “disagrees” – we just take them in our stride.
Bala, I am sure that with time your motivation will change – you will want to help for the sake of helping. And sorry for the “disagree”! ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Kirill Semenov wrote:
.. is to show in numbers how many agrees/neutrals/disagrees this particular peer gave to this particular answerer.
The numbers may show explicitly if the peer is subjective or objective as for this or that answerer.
How can this show subjectivity or objectivity? It just shows that person X agreed/disagreed a certain number of times with answers given by person Y. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you look at each individual question, you can't tell whether any agree or disagree, respectively, is justified or not. Even if there are only disagrees and not a single agree, this doesn't mean that person X is not objective. It could also mean that person Y only supplies bad/unsuitable answers (and believe me, I've seen people who are capable of that).
Furthermore, we want honest opinions in the evaluation of answers and not make feel everyone uncomfortable knowing that every action is watched and recorded by "Big Brother".
As Kim pointed out, anyone who feels insulted or attacked by a certain comment or behavior can notify the moderator. IMO, this is the most professional way to deal with any type of conflict in Proz.
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 23:59
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| It's more objective... | Jul 3, 2005 |
Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
How can this show subjectivity or objectivity? It just shows that person X agreed/disagreed a certain number of times with answers given by person Y.
Sure, it will show a personal bias! It will show if there is a `disagree war' or not. Konstantin told us about an extreme case, with email bombarding, etc. However weird it looks, I believe it happens in kudoZ. I can remember a lot of cases when a ten-word answer got a `disagree' just because "have/has" mistake or something like this. People don't understand _a measure_ of disagreeing, that's the problem! And some people find thier ego-satistyfing pleasure in giving disagrees. They never agree, but as soon as do you or anyone make a slight mistake -- here they are with their disagree, trampling you down to dust.
I'm not discussing how it _should_ be in an ideal environment, I'm just saying how it is in _the real kudoZ world_. All these "should" and "must" -- yes, they sound great, and I've read the rules, and I have my opinion on a perfect human society, too. Unfortunately, in reality it's not that perfect as we dream of (by the way, maybe it's very good, otherwise I would hardly feel I'm among humans, not in one of that utopical community ).
Anyway, the point is that we _have_ a problem, and stating that we do not even million times doesn't help to solve it. A constructive way of democracy is that: if someone feels bad about something, the "something" has to be improved.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 02:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The colour of the cat doesn’t matter | Jul 4, 2005 |
Elizabeth Rudin wrote:
And now Im afraid I have to disagree with almost everything our colleague Balasubramaniam posted at 4.08 am...
Hi Elizabeth,
That was a disagree that I found immensely pleasant and left no hard feelings in my mind towards you. I wish all diagrees on the Kudoz forum were so elegantly and diplomatically worded. But as Kirill has said in his posting, the world is not the perfect place we all wish it to be.
Yet, I must respectfully disagree with your views. I have lived long enough in this world to know that pure altruism is a figment of human imagination and there is a personal motive in every action we take, in fact, in every action that any living thing takes, to take an axiom out of ecology. They are all calculated to serve our own individual purposes. It may be that some of you lucky people are so bombarded with work that you have to decline half of them. I wish it were like that with me! Here every small assignment is cause for a celebration.
My motive for participating in kudoz may change when I ever come into a situation where work is so plentiful that I have to refuse many, but till that happens, I have to use every resource available to me to angle for work and that includes the kudoz forum.
Having said that, it doesn’t mean at all that the answers I put up there are substandard or that they go out of the way to advertise me. I try to put up the best, most professional answer I am capable of, for I always have at the back of my mind that a potential client might be evaluating my answers. That is the motive that strives me to excellence.
You will agree that even this non-altruistic motive serves the same purpose as a purely altruistic one of wanting to help the asker.
As Mao had said, how does the colour of the cat matter, if it catches mice!
So I am only being honest in stating my true motive in participating in kudoz.
You must grant that people approach kudoz with different motives and not all of them are to be despised on the face of it.
| | |
|
|
|
paula arturo
United States
Local time: 16:59
Spanish to English
+ ...
| It's easier to tear things down than build them up... | Jul 4, 2005 |
[quote]Saleh Chowdhury wrote:
I have got a "disagree" in one of my Kudoz answers and did not know why. So, I asked my colleague, "...why you disagree with my translation? Do you think my translation is incorrect?!"
I find that there are people who seem to go around disagreeing with everyone and not making any suggestions of their own. Someone said something about positive feedback, I think that's the way to go.
You may not agree with someone's translation, but making suggestions and recomending reference materials is much more productive than an a bright red disagree.
You have every right not to agree with someone, but do you have the right to make them feel bad? I think that's what one should look out for when deciding between the much questioned "disagree" and the more accepted "neutral." If you choose to disagree as someone else wrote, there are nice ways of going about it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Kudoz are for helping each other, not bringing each other down.
| | | | Gina W
United States
Local time: 16:59
Member (2003)
French to English
| I usually don't disagree unless the answer is actually incorrect | Jul 5, 2005 |
And even then, I usually just leave it alone. A translation that is clearly wrong is what "disagree" should be for, IMO, but there are plenty of times when I choose "neutral" if I have comments but would not choose "agree" - some people are quicker to choose "disagree" than I am, but me I don't do it that often.
Anyway, if a translation is not incorrect, but just might not be the preferred answer, then IMO, a person should not "disagree". But there are people who do, so I think it... See more And even then, I usually just leave it alone. A translation that is clearly wrong is what "disagree" should be for, IMO, but there are plenty of times when I choose "neutral" if I have comments but would not choose "agree" - some people are quicker to choose "disagree" than I am, but me I don't do it that often.
Anyway, if a translation is not incorrect, but just might not be the preferred answer, then IMO, a person should not "disagree". But there are people who do, so I think it just depends upon the person. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Donahue (X)
Russian to English
+ ...
| Spare the rod and spoil the child | Jul 8, 2005 |
Nobody likes being disagreed with, on Proz or in real life and obviously the frustration that comes from a disagree is exacerbated when it's groundless. However, disagrees (when properly given) are an essential part of the game. It's our own little quality control process.
Here's my personal take on this;
agree: used when I agree with the answer. Most times I will just agree and move on but if the answer is particularly good or maybe needs minor fine tuning I'll thro... See more Nobody likes being disagreed with, on Proz or in real life and obviously the frustration that comes from a disagree is exacerbated when it's groundless. However, disagrees (when properly given) are an essential part of the game. It's our own little quality control process.
Here's my personal take on this;
agree: used when I agree with the answer. Most times I will just agree and move on but if the answer is particularly good or maybe needs minor fine tuning I'll throw in my two cents.
neutral: used when an answer has merit. Let's face facts, we're all individuals and we all make mistakes from time to time. Maybe you misread the context, or answered only part of the question. Maybe your answer is mainly correct but there's an error in your explanation. For this I use neutral and I always (always, always!)provide an explanation.
disagree: a.k.a. the "nuclear option". These are risky on several counts and should be used sparingly. After all, maybe I am the one who doesn't understand what's going on. Who wants to suffer the "tough love" given after a bad disagree? I use a disagree only if I am completely sure that the answer given is wrong or misleading. Even then, I'll put as much time into wording a disagree as I would answering the question myself.
I don't think that Proz is just one big "knitting circle" necessarily. There are a lot of people on here who I like very much. I agree with their answers (when they're right of course) gladly, but I would like to think that we're all professional enough on here to give a neutral or disagree to anyone, whether we like them or not. At the end of the day the most important thing is arriving at the best answer to a question. That principle overrides "selling yourself" or ruthlessly hunting for points. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 22:59
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Dag gone you kudoz answerers take this stuff seriously.
I think one little suggestion would help stop hurting the feelings of a jilted kudoer: how about changing the color of a disagree from red to black? That red "disagree" is like an emergency light which calls attention to the guilty party. With that red emergency light going off your worst nightmare is then all but confirmed: you are a bad kudoz answerer.
[Edited at 2005-07-20 15:37]
| | |
|
|
|
| red to black? | Jul 20, 2005 |
Edward Potter wrote:
how about changing the color of a disagree from red to black?
Good idea, IMO.
Or maybe replace the word "Disagree" with sth. less likely to be taken as a personal attack? Can't think of a suitable replacement, though. (Is this only an issue where the English word "disagree" is used? How do the other language combis cope?). There must be a friendlier solution.
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 22:59
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Yes - Neutral - No, because... | Jul 20, 2005 |
Hi Cilian,
We might as well use the above distinctions instead of agree - neutral - disagree. BTW, the "disagree" colour had been glaring red in the past and was already subdued to a less obtrusive reddish shade.
My 2c,
Steffen
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 16:59
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | Honest disagrees are to everyone's benefit | Jul 20, 2005 |
Robert Donahue wrote:
I agree with their answers (when they're right of course) gladly, but I would like to think that we're all professional enough on here to give a neutral or disagree to anyone, whether we like them or not. At the end of the day the most important thing is arriving at the best answer to a question.
I think the sting of a disagree fades with time. After all, if the disagree-er is correct, you have to grin and bear it. Just hide the incorrect answer, end of story. If the disagree-er is incorrect, an interesting discussion can emerge to the benefit of all.
That's my take on it, red, black or plaid. The most serious translators on the site who disagree with me when I'm off the mark will also heartily agree when they think I'm right (Hi Dusty!)
We don't have face-to-face conversation with body language and interruptions and exclamations. It's a different environment. But if I were at a meeting in a conference room and someone said, 'I disagree with that, Nancy, because XYZ' I wouldn't get all mad and vindictive! Why do it here?
Nancy
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 23:59
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Personal experience | Jul 20, 2005 |
There is a couple of people in my pair who never agree with me, but they use any chance, even utterly stupid, to give their neutral or disagree comment to my answers. If they don't give neutrals to me directly, they agree with other answers making humiliating comments in the address of my answers. At the same time the people post "peace-to-all" postings at the general forums like this one.
I used to it, and I don't answer back, but I know perfectly the implied reasons and anything. ... See more There is a couple of people in my pair who never agree with me, but they use any chance, even utterly stupid, to give their neutral or disagree comment to my answers. If they don't give neutrals to me directly, they agree with other answers making humiliating comments in the address of my answers. At the same time the people post "peace-to-all" postings at the general forums like this one.
I used to it, and I don't answer back, but I know perfectly the implied reasons and anything. I have my guts to challenge the people's opinions at local forums. I don't feel like complaining to moderators (but I know perfectly that moderators of my pair are aware of the fact). First of all, there are no proofs that the people are biased against me, personally. They are smart enough to disguise themselves, but for me the fact that someone never gives you an agree, but always ready to disagree with me is an enough proof of bias.
I just propose to not lie to ourselves: kudoZ is a society, and we _do have_ personal relationships here. We may state how it _should be_, ideally, but the reality is different.
What I mean is that when we meet "petty tyrants" in kudoZ -- let's face it, and take it as a part of life. All in all it makes us stronger. Just don't behave like them, that's what's important. Do what you do and let it be as it is. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Under what circumstances one can "disagree" with a Kudoz answer? | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
