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Release announcement: New KudoZ features
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto

Enrique Cavalitto
Local time: 22:40
SITE STAFF
May 18, 2006

Dear members,

As part of the May release we have added several new KudoZ features, including:

* You may remember that in response to member requests, a limit was instituted last year on the number of KudoZ questions that can be asked per day. The decision has been highly popular, but some confusion and inconvenience have resulted. Therefore, to make things easier, it is now possible to enter questions even after your limit has been hit. Such questions are held an appropriate period of time, and then posted as soon as would be allowed according to the daily limits (which are applied on a sliding 24-hour window). You'll get email notification when your question goes live.

* Another new KudoZ feature is something we are calling the "first validated answer" (FVA) option. When posting a question, a KudoZ asker is now given the option of waiving the right to choose the best answer, instead taking the first answer judged acceptable by the answerer community. In this mode, questions close automatically as soon as any answer receives two peer agreements.

It is expected that this feature, which provides the possibility of "leaving the decision to the pros", will be useful for askers who do not speak the target language. [Note the following:
- FVA questions will be of the “not for points” category.
- FVA questions will be targeted to those working in the pair and field, and native in the target language.
- FVA-generated glossary entries will be left out of the KOG, until we can establish whether or not entries made are of an acceptable standard.
- We do not expect the FVA mode to be used more than 1% of the time. This experiment should not be viewed as a move in any direction. It is a distinct service mode, and we do not anticipate that it will result in changes to "normal" (non-FVA) KudoZ.]

* Also, the migration from old to new KudoZ design has been completed. As announced in mid February in http://www.proz.com/topic/42731, it is no longer possible to use the old KudoZ designs.

Please feel free to post your feedback in this thread.

Once again thanks to you, our members, for making these improvements possible.

Regards,
Enrique


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 04:40
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
`Not for Points' answers? May 18, 2006

Is it possible to implement the feature? I think it has been long awaited by many of us. I mean `not for points' answers which do not spoil our kudoZ statistics. For a while, many answerers hesitate to provide their extremely valuable answers and explanatory comments if they don't feel like be graded or don't want to be selected or just try to help with a long comment, but still don't want their statistical ratio to decrease.

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GoodWords  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 20:40
Spanish to English
+ ...
Unfortunate feature May 18, 2006


* Another new KudoZ feature is something we are calling the "first validated answer" option. When posting a question, a KudoZ asker is now given the option of waiving the right to choose the best answer, instead taking the first answer judged acceptable by the answerer community. In this mode, questions close automatically as soon as any answer receives two peer agreements. It is expected that this feature, which provides the possibility of "leaving the decision to the pros", will be useful for askers who do not speak the target language. These “first validated answers” will be of the “not for points” category.


Allowing askers to close questions before 24 hours have passed has long been a factor contributing to poor choices and incorrect glossary entries. I foresee the above feature reinforcing this trend instead of working to counteract it. At what price convenience?

What happens all too often is that it doesn't take long for a quick but misguided early answer to accumulate two (or even many) agrees in a "bandwagon" effect. However as the hours go by, and one or several better, more correct answers are proposed and backed up with solid reasons and reliable references, later visitors to the query have a better choice; in the end the majority generally votes for a correct answer. Their comments and references then help the asker to choose correctly even if s/he doesn't speak the target language.

[Edited at 2006-05-18 15:39]


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 04:40
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Agree with GoodWords May 18, 2006

Agree on all points!

At least, the number of agrees should be raised to 4 or more . I don't know the exact number because it must be tied to the number of active answerers in the pair, and I only participate in 2 major pairs.

I would much rather see a 24-hour moratorium insituted on question grading.


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Cetacea  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 03:40
English to German
+ ...
My opinion exactly! May 18, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Agree on all points!

At least, the number of agrees should be raised to 4 or more . I don't know the exact number because it must be tied to the number of active answerers in the pair, and I only participate in 2 major pairs.

I would much rather see a 24-hour moratorium insituted on question grading.


That's how I feel as well. If the feature must be implemented (and I really don't see why it's supposed to be an improvement), then at least raise the number of agrees.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:40
SITE FOUNDER
Not a replacement; FVA questions have a different goal May 18, 2006

GoodWords wrote:

Allowing askers to close questions before 24 hours have passed has long been a factor contributing to poor choices and incorrect glossary entries. I foresee the above feature reinforcing this trend instead of working to counteract it. At what price convenience?

What you are saying - that in a rush quality will suffer - is true. We are not trying to replace the current model; the goal is different in FVA: it is to get the first validated answer, ie. the first acceptable answer (not the best possible answer.)

As this is not a replacement of anything, but a new experiment, such issues as not-for-points answers and the 24-hour moratorium, both of which are still on the table, are not pertinent to FVA.
At what price convenience?

Well, ask an interpreter - they usually don't get 24 hours!


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:40
SITE FOUNDER
Raising number of agrees may be useful - let's see first May 18, 2006

Cetacea wrote:
That's how I feel as well. If the feature must be implemented (and I really don't see why it's supposed to be an improvement)...

It is not an improvement, but an alternative form of KudoZ interaction.
... then at least raise the number of agrees.

Not a bad idea. Let's see how it goes.


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skport  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 22:40
Portuguese to English
+ ...
interpreters? May 18, 2006

Closing a question based on the number of agrees will make the glossary and term search features even more unreliable than they already are.

I thought that this site is aimed at professional translators, so I do not understand the point of encouraging people who do not know the source language to post questions. I think this site is trying to be too many things at once.

Henry - Do you know the difference between translators and interpreters?!? Kudoz has nothing to do with interpreting!

Sarah


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 04:40
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Acceptable answer logic? May 18, 2006

I am surprised at the "acceptable answer logic" brought on by this improvement. The fact that an answer is judged to be acceptable in a hurried fashion makes it completely unacceptable in the long-term!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but KudoZ is not a human translation service, but a network for language professionals to help each other (and occasionally some passers-by for a few non-PRO points).

We've all seen an "obvious" answer getting five or more agrees in an hour, only to have it proven completely wrong during the next hour.

I propose that IF the majority is to decide on which answer is best, then the decision must be postponed until after everyone has had their say.


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Anabel Canon
Local time: 03:40
English to Spanish
+ ...
Agree with Mikhail and Sarah and GoodWords... May 18, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but KudoZ is not a human translation service, but a network for language professionals to help each other (and occasionally some passers-by for a few non-PRO points).

We've all seen an "obvious" answer getting five or more agrees in an hour, only to have it proven completely wrong during the next hour.


I couldn't have said it (written, in fact...) better! Raising the number of agrees before closing a question and a a 24-hour moratorium seem good ways to start.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 03:40
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Why?? May 18, 2006

Please tell us Henry:

What is the compelling reason for this deterioration of the KudoZ system and KOG.

It can only make both worse.

'Improvements' should go in the other direction.

Old KOG fan waiting for true improvements.

[Edited at 2006-05-18 17:31]


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Prawi  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 03:40
German to Italian
Fully agree with my colleagues (GoodWords, Mikhail, Sarah, Mats...) May 18, 2006

Sorry, but I don't really see any improvement in the new feature - on the contrary. Even raising the number of agrees wouldn't help much, I'm afraid, I've seen completely wrong answers with 4 agrees ( URL on request). Apart from it, I wonder how many of us don't know the target language.

Paola


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:40
SITE FOUNDER
A request: let's see how it goes! May 18, 2006

Folks, I don't believe any of us can yet say with any degree of certainty whether or not this new approach will prove useful. So I'd like to ask that you all reserve judgment and simply see how it goes! Surely there will be some rough edges to iron out, but who knows, maybe there is something of value in the "leave it to the pros" approach respesented by FVA mode.

Here is the first FVA question, by the way: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1365639


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:40
SITE FOUNDER
What the new mode has in common with interpreting May 18, 2006

Sarah Kersley wrote:
Henry - Do you know the difference between translators and interpreters?!? Kudoz has nothing to do with interpreting!



You missed my point. If you are an interpreter, you know that often, you have a limited amount of time to select your best "translation" of a term and just go with it. The new KudoZ mode is similar in that respect.


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Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:40
Member (2004)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Not a good idea at all! May 19, 2006

Sarah Kersley wrote:

Closing a question based on the number of agrees will make the glossary and term search features even more unreliable than they already are.

I thought that this site is aimed at professional translators, so I do not understand the point of encouraging people who do not know the source language to post questions. I think this site is trying to be too many things at once.

Henry - Do you know the difference between translators and interpreters?!? Kudoz has nothing to do with interpreting!

Sarah


I agree. Why are we stretching ourselves so thin like that? We need to get our priorities straight here. I want to help professional translators deliver quality work to their clients, not someone who needs to know how to say "goodbye" to his/her Spanish pen pal in a jiffy. We can't be everything.


What you are saying - that in a rush quality will suffer - is true. We are not trying to replace the current model; the goal is different in FVA: it is to get the first validated answer, ie. the first acceptable answer (not the best possible answer.)
Henry


Not the best possible answer? That’s disgraceful (and believe me, that is the nicest way I can put it). What kind of example are we giving here as professional translators? That quality doesn't matter? That goes against everything that a professional translator believes in. No translator worth their salt wants to hand in “acceptable” work. They want to hand in EXCELLENT work. I came to this site – and have recommended it to others, both peers and clients – because I consider it a resource for professionals. We’re turning it into Babelfish.


[Edited at 2006-05-19 01:02]


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