| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | How satisfied are you with KudoZ answers at ProZ.com? Thread poster: lux
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 12:35
French to English
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| attitudes are changing... | Jul 4, 2006 |
When I first discovered this site, I was pleased to see that, in answering questions, the journey there was often collective, a sort of brainstorming exercise via ProZ. Nobody minded running the risk of helping others on the way to finding the right result.
Now if you get something wrong inadvertently, they fall on you like a ton of bricks. It is less friendly and much more aggressive.
Before if a colleague was stuck and nobody was volunteering assistance, I was happy to make a cou... See more When I first discovered this site, I was pleased to see that, in answering questions, the journey there was often collective, a sort of brainstorming exercise via ProZ. Nobody minded running the risk of helping others on the way to finding the right result.
Now if you get something wrong inadvertently, they fall on you like a ton of bricks. It is less friendly and much more aggressive.
Before if a colleague was stuck and nobody was volunteering assistance, I was happy to make a couple of suggestions to help him or her on his or her way. Now I think twice or even more.
It is a shame things have to go downhill this way. Some contributors should remember that, especially where expressions are concerned, there is no one right answer. It is all a matter of taste and any suggestion can be thought-provoking and lead to a satisfactory conclusion.
Provide, of course, we are dealing with an intelligent community.
Why can't we go back to those good old days? ▲ Collapse
| | | | gwm 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:35
Member (2005)
| I just try to be helpful... | Jul 4, 2006 |
...and hope that's the reason why everybody else does it, too. Sometimes my answer is right and sometimes it is the stepping stone for somebody else in finding the right answer. But at least the asker gets the help s/he needed.
Sometimes answers are chosen, which I would not have gone for and sometimes I find answers in Kudoz my gut feeling tells me: ‘that can't be right' and I go and find my answer elsewhere.
I am with Cindy Chadd on the Google searches. I quote/rel... See more ...and hope that's the reason why everybody else does it, too. Sometimes my answer is right and sometimes it is the stepping stone for somebody else in finding the right answer. But at least the asker gets the help s/he needed.
Sometimes answers are chosen, which I would not have gone for and sometimes I find answers in Kudoz my gut feeling tells me: ‘that can't be right' and I go and find my answer elsewhere.
I am with Cindy Chadd on the Google searches. I quote/rely on the number of Google hits, when I am sure they really are relevant. Often you get loads of Google hits, only to find the expression used always comes from a 'foreign' source, i.e. there is no literal translation and all non-mothertongue people translate it in the same, basically wrong way. 100,000 Google hits don't make it right.
What bothers me with Kudoz, just as EmmanuelleAnn says, are the sometimes impolite, occasionally vicious comments of other translators to their colleagues' answers. What is the point?
And do we really need the points system? This is not the Olympics, but a forum where colleagues help each other out in tricky situations. And if I help X today, Y will help me tomorrow and in return is helped by Z next week. That's how it should work. But maybe I am idealistic here.
Anyhow: overall Kudoz has been a great source of help!
Gisela ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 12:35
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Hmm ... the "intelligent community" does still prevail (at least in my pairs) | Jul 4, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
Now if you get something wrong inadvertently, they fall on you like a ton of bricks. It is less friendly and much more aggressive.
...
It is a shame things have to go downhill this way. Some contributors should remember that, especially where expressions are concerned, there is no one right answer. It is all a matter of taste and any suggestion can be thought-provoking and lead to a satisfactory conclusion.
Provide, of course, we are dealing with an intelligent community.
Why can't we go back to those good old days?
I do believe that the KudoZ picture/situation varies a lot across language pairs (and also depends on the composition of the respective community). Thus all opinions voiced here are bound to be biased by the selective perception of the pairs visited by the contributors to this thread (this holds true for me, too).
Therefore, speaking mainly for EN>DE/DE>EN (and also FR>DE), I beg to maintain that the "intelligent community" does largely prevail (you'll always encounter those isolated cases of aggressiveness, though). I am unable to make judgments regarding the situation in other pairs, though.
Regarding Google searches - and this may seem all too obvious -, these need to be narrowed down as far as possible in order to retrieve websites well within the specialisation at hand, and to be able to prove native target usage of a given term or expression in the specific field. Short excerpts from citations thus retrieved may be entered into the answer field without hesitation.
Please also consider that one of the basic principles of our KudoZ interactions is that "what comes around, goes around". The better a question is asked (i.e. well-founded, enough subject matter detail, sufficient context information and so forth), the more it invites participation by top contributors. There's not only intelligent answering - there's intelligent asking, too.
I, for one, almost always received excellent answers to the few questions I ever asked.
My 2c worth,
Steffen
P.S. On a final note (@ CMJ_Trans), why don't you report instances of aggressive behaviour to the moderator(s) of the pair(s) concerned, instead of vaguely complaining about a "downhill" trend?
[Edited at 2006-07-04 13:35]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 12:35
French to English
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Sorry - I don't report these stupid things because I don't think it would do me any favours and anyway we are all supposed to be adults .......
I find it sad (and you are right, the pairs concerned are not those you mention) but I think reporting would only add to the nastiness...
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Courtney McConnel (X)
France
Local time: 12:35
French to English
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| A great resource when you're feeling strong | Jul 4, 2006 |
I agree with a lot of things said here, especially Gisela's:
And do we really need the points system? This is not the Olympics, but a forum where colleagues help each other out in tricky situations. And if I help X today, Y will help me tomorrow and in return is helped by Z next week. That's how it should work.
I can also relate to Balasubramanian's feelings about being desperate and stressed and then getting ragged on because you didn't set up the question according t... See more I agree with a lot of things said here, especially Gisela's:
And do we really need the points system? This is not the Olympics, but a forum where colleagues help each other out in tricky situations. And if I help X today, Y will help me tomorrow and in return is helped by Z next week. That's how it should work.
I can also relate to Balasubramanian's feelings about being desperate and stressed and then getting ragged on because you didn't set up the question according to how that person felt you should.
I think whether it's in the kudoz forum or not, translation can bring out (I see it in myself) self-righteousness, judgment and an imbalanced quest for 'right and wrong'. One word is worth so little financially but so much for one's pride. These are lessons of great humility for me. I also try not to forget that the tone a person is taking can be far more easily misinterpreted in writing than verbally.
Having said all that, kudoz has been a lifesaver for me. I have been extremely satisfied with the answers and explanations I've gotten (with the occasional bonus of "French lessons"), and knowing that it's there is my security blanket; it gives me the confidence to tackle things I might not otherwise (such as translating into French, translating literary projects--basically anything that's not my strength). So thanks to all, and while we're out it, let's give ourselves a hand! : ) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Courtney McConnel (X)
France
Local time: 12:35
French to English
+ ...
| Great suggestion, Steffen | Jul 4, 2006 |
[quote]Steffen Walter wrote:
why don't you report instances of aggressive behaviour to the moderator(s)
That is an excellent idea. Thanks for reminding us there's a watchdog! : )
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 12:35
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Keeping things under the carpet never helps | Jul 5, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
Sorry - I don't report these stupid things because I don't think it would do me any favours and anyway we are all supposed to be adults .......
I find it sad (and you are right, the pairs concerned are not those you mention) but I think reporting would only add to the nastiness...
Sorry, but I can't agree with your approach here - it's precisely this attitude of keeping things under the carpet that is not helpful at all, but rather contributes to perpetuating bad mood and dissatisfaction. So please do speak up if you notice something odd or violations of rules. In my opinion, reporting these issues is the first step towards overcoming the nastiness, followed by appropriate moderator or staff action if needed.
On a related note, you quite rightly said that "we're supposed to be adults" but this does not prevent us from becoming a child again every now and then
Steffen
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 12:35
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | Help should be appreciated, even if it is rubbish | Jul 5, 2006 |
IF you ask for help you cannot slap the hand offering help!
It is your job to evaluate the answers and use the suggestions according to your (and the peers') judgement.
Don't complain about low quality.
Often, low quality answers are directly related to the question being badly and poorly put (not even a full sentence and no context).
Points help making answering meaningful (besides the linguistic cha... See more IF you ask for help you cannot slap the hand offering help!
It is your job to evaluate the answers and use the suggestions according to your (and the peers') judgement.
Don't complain about low quality.
Often, low quality answers are directly related to the question being badly and poorly put (not even a full sentence and no context).
Points help making answering meaningful (besides the linguistic challenge). See my Confessions: (http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/509/1/Confessions-of-a-'KudoZ-point-grabber') ▲ Collapse
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Gina W
United States
Local time: 06:35
Member (2003)
French to English
| Totally agree | Jul 6, 2006 |
EmmanuelleAnn wrote:
Helpful but really disapointing when some answerers start bickering (eg: "my answer is better than yours; I had found that answer before you" gna, gna,gna...) I recently came accross that childish phenomenon after posting a question. Ridiculous and unprofessional...
[Edited at 2006-07-03 19:52]
Yes, I find that in general answerers are nice and helpful, yet I also find that there are those others who are consistently nasty - whether I am an Asker or an Answerer. It has greatly discouraged me from participating as much as I would if this were not the case.
However, to those who are nice, friendly, and participate in the true spirit of collaboration, I am grateful, and of course I am more than satisfied with their answers. I just wish the others would either go away or at least be a little more professional.
Regarding reporting nastiness or aggressive behavior to moderators, I have done so, and while some comments do break the rules, there are plenty of other that do not technically break the rules, yet in my opinion are completely contrary to the spirit of KudoZ, which is one of collaboration. That, to me, entails respect of others and professionalism, but apparently some people can't handle that.
I agree with what Chinese Concept said about people nitpicking, as I have experienced that myself. Gisela also made a similar point, which unfortunately just further proves my point. I wish this weren't the case, but it is.
I also agree with what CMJ_Trans wrote, and I hope CMJ_Trans won't mind me saying that I have always appreciated your input to questions, whether they be mine or questions that others post.
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 12:35
German to English
+ ...
| The rubbish is the problem | Jul 6, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
Help should be appreciated, even if it is rubbish
IF you ask for help you cannot slap the hand offering help!
It is your job to evaluate the answers and use the suggestions according to your (and the peers') judgement.
Don't complain about low quality.
Often, low quality answers are directly related to the question being badly and poorly put (not even a full sentence and no context).
Oh, stop it, Mats! If your car broke down on the motorway and someone came up to you claiming to be a mechanic, offered his "solution" and ended up ruining your engine completely, would you "appreciate" this. Asking an intelligent question on ProZ and getting a handful of inane answers from people with too much time on their hands is equally frustrating.
This may sound arrogant, but I feel that people who don't have a good command of both source and target language (note "good", not "perfect" or - horror of horrors - "native") have nothing to offer and should refrain from - to quote Cindy - "making fools of themselves".
KudoZ is a wonderful tool if you know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, and Mats' "all answers are sacred" approach" simply increases the chaff.
PS: CMJ, I think the German-English site is a more peaceful, albeit rather more boring place than it used to be. And precious few point-grabbers in sight.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 12:35
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | Arrogant indeed! | Jul 6, 2006 |
This may sound arrogant, but I feel that people who don't have a good command of both source and target language (note "good", not "perfect" or - horror of horrors - "native") have nothing to offer and should refrain from - to quote Cindy - "making fools of themselves".
That is exactly how it sounds.
Oh, thou master of perfection, how do you entice answers?
Certainly not by telling willing answerers that they are chaff, stupid or not worthy of lofty answers from 'true professionals'
Perfect flowers do not grow out of perfect soil. They thrive on rich humus consisting of a great variety of substances (suggestions).
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 12:35
German to English
+ ...
| Gardening leave | Jul 6, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
This may sound arrogant, but I feel that people who don't have a good command of both source and target language (note "good", not "perfect" or - horror of horrors - "native") have nothing to offer and should refrain from - to quote Cindy - "making fools of themselves".
That is exactly how it sounds. Oh, thou master of perfection, how do you entice answers? Certainly not by telling willing answerers that they are chaff, stupid or not worthy of lofty answers from 'true professionals' Perfect flowers do not grow out of perfect soil. They thrive on rich humus consisting of a great variety of substances (suggestions).
(a) If I were perfect, I wouldn't need to ask questions, would I?
(b) This is not about gardening, it's about translation. In this case, the less crap there is lying around the better!
(c) To answer your question, I "entice" answers by giving back what I take out of the community by offering my answers in areas I feel qualified to answer (and sometimes get it wrong). Simply give and take.
(d) Whether, for example, the English-Dutch site would benefit from my trying to answer questions based on my knowledge of German is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it would be very irritating for everyone, particularly the asker. You seem to suggest that it would be a very important part of the process.
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| Couldn't agree more-too much rubbish spoils the view | Jul 6, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote:
If your car broke down on the motorway and someone came up to you claiming to be a mechanic, offered his "solution" and ended up ruining your engine completely, would you "appreciate" this. Asking an intelligent question on ProZ.com and getting a handful of inane answers from people with too much time on their hands is equally frustrating.
This may sound arrogant, but I feel that people who don't have a good command of both source and target language (note "good", not "perfect" or - horror of horrors - "native") have nothing to offer and should refrain from - to quote Cindy - "making fools of themselves".
KudoZ is a wonderful tool if you know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, and Mats' "all answers are sacred" approach" simply increases the chaff.".
Once upon a time, there was an advice page about Kudoz, reminding people that answers would receive positive AND negative comments and not to take negative comments personally (some people take them VERY personnally at present) and there was also a note asking people to refrain from answering in languages and/or fields they did not know.
Well, this advice has been 'removed' in the current approach of 'welcome to any and all'. Membership numbers are up but quality is taking a big hit.
No garden that is overrun by weeds/chaff will still look like a garden. And a translator site overrun by people winging it in the race for points will no longer look like a (pro) translator site. Imho, Kudoz is now viewed too much as a 'showcase' and not enough for what it once was, a place for pro translators to get help with probs they encounter in their texts.
I think that advice page should be put back. Or it should be clearly stated that Kudoz is now just a place for getting your name on Google, at any cost.
There ARE lots of serious, capable pros still helping but they are being crowded out, slowly but surely.
Surely one can't justify blasting out an off-the-walls answer just for the sake of putting in an appearance. That's a blow against the people for whom Kudoz was created, namely Pros needing help with a problem.
[Edited at 2006-07-06 15:39]
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 06:35
German to English
+ ...
| KudoZ shouldn't be a dustbin | Jul 6, 2006 |
(or a trash can, or whatever they're called in the part of the world where you're reading this).
Mats Wiman wrote:
Help should be appreciated, even if it is rubbish
I read this contribution a couple of times, and those surrounding it, but have to confess I don't quite 'get' the joke. And there's no way this statement could be meant seriously. Is there?
Of course I appreciate people making an effort to help, but I don't appreciate "rubbish" - which in this case I take to mean horribly wrong or inadequate answers resulting from a lack of care and/or a lack of knowledge. There's not too much of this in my pair, fortunately, but there always are a few people who rush to answer questions they've not read properly and a few others who may take a little longer but, far too often, simply don't have a clue.
This isn't directly correlated to the quality of the questions, either. It's not at all unusual to see well-asked questions answered poorly. An asker carefully explains why a particular target term doesn't seem like an appropriate translation in her/his context, for example, and a minute later a point-chaser has entered precisely that term with a dash or 'smiley' in place of an explanation.
Or an asker translating a highly specialised text into her/his native language asks a technical, specialist question - and gets three or four ludicrous proposals from non-natives with no specialist subject knowledge and little feel for either language.
That ain't "help" and there's no reason to appreciate the efforts of those who produce it.
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
United States
Local time: 06:35
German to English
+ ...
| I've still got my school dictionary | Jul 6, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote:
Whether, for example, the English-Dutch site would benefit from my trying to answer questions based on my knowledge of German is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it would be very irritating for everyone, particularly the asker. You seem to suggest that it would be a very important part of the process.
It would clearly be enriching and I encourage you to get stuck in.
Maybe some of Mats' language pairs could also benefit from more input from concerned, caring colleagues.
My ability to speak and comprehend French is very limited, but I have successfully used the language to order wine, book hotel rooms and buy train tickets. And, although I failed my French 'O'-level, I've still got a pocket dictionary somewhere. I also have close ties to the Swedish language and Swedish culture: I know several people who have visited Sweden and my home country's football team was, until recently, managed by a Swede.
I might not be the best French-Swedish translator, yet, but I'm sure my efforts will be appreciated. See you there, Ian? Oops, I forgot - you can understand French, so it wouldn't really be as much of a learning process for you.
[Edited at 2006-07-06 14:45]
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