| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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BAmary (X) 
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Spanish
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| No, it's not | Jul 26, 2006 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Is this not a request for the site to adopt your view? If not, my apologies.
Again, it's just my opinion. If I wanted the site to adopt my views, I would have done much more than post what I think in a forum. I would have probably sent a formal letter with my request.
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 21:36
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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Konstantin Kisin wrote: BAmary wrote:
If this is a site for professional translators, why not start by making sure that its members actually ARE professional translators?
Is this not a request for the site to adopt your view? If not, my apologies.
I see nothing wrong with making suggestions in this or any other ProZ forum.
Maria
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...but I don't agree with the suggestion
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It is my opinion that the ideal translator will have both translation and field-specific studies [read: will have studies]. Clearly we're in muddy territory here, as language professionals deal with the very element that makes all other studies exist -language. Given that, it is tricky to state that someone like Tony should not call themselves translators, when it is apparent his language skills are good enough to do so. However, I should think Tony is an example of the type of exception Maria p... See more It is my opinion that the ideal translator will have both translation and field-specific studies [read: will have studies]. Clearly we're in muddy territory here, as language professionals deal with the very element that makes all other studies exist -language. Given that, it is tricky to state that someone like Tony should not call themselves translators, when it is apparent his language skills are good enough to do so. However, I should think Tony is an example of the type of exception Maria pointed out in her initial post.
Tony -Dusty- wrote:
I really have to take issue with Maria's claim that a 'qualified' translator per se is bound to be better than a professional in a specific field (in my case, technical...)
BAmary wrote:
Much of the rubbish comes from these people, who have no idea about translation techniques, research, or even common sense. I know there are some translators who did not go to school but have years of experience, especially because translation programs in universities are relatively new, so I don't want to generalize, but I'm aware that these people with no degree and a lot of experience are rare to find. If this is a site for professional translators, why not start by making sure that its members actually ARE professional translators? I’m sick and tired of people bringing down the translation profession, and accepting people without any education whatsoever in our community, and consequently their rubbish answers, only contributes to bring it down even more. And I repeat, before someone snaps at me, I’m NOT saying all people translating without qualifications answer rubbish. I’m just saying they should go to school before they call themselves translators.
Tony -Dusty- wrote:
I disagree with the statement that most of the rubbish comes from non-translators. Most of the rubbish comes from people who have little idea of the subject area in question, perhaps do not understand the source text or the underlying meaning or are unprofessional enough to think that just anything will do. This is a MENTALITY problem. It has nothing to do with having a translation degree.
What is a far more fundamental requirement, as has already been stated in this thread, is the application of some basic intelligence, wide-ranging language experience, and a high level of general culture; plus a well-honed technique for self-criticism and re-examination. Not forgetting, of course, a good grasp of at least elementary research techniques!
I have to agree with that. I myself have received preposterous answers from alledgedly certified translators which left me wondering whether they'd bothered reading the question at all. Many posters on this site will simply hasten to add a suggestion, as if it were some sort of race.
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
And the comparison with law or medicine always makes me weep. Hello? Does an English-speaking doctor need to know anything about Urdu for a medical condition? Does a lawyer need to have a sound understanding of video game development or shipping?
Faulty logic.
While the English-speaking doctor need not know any Urdu to diagnose a condition, he will necessarily have near-native language skills -and I don't mean appropriate terminology but a fluent, cohesive, natural and understandable style- if he is to render that medical condition in Urdu for other doctors to read about.
Imho, it is actually a lot more difficult to become a *good* translator by _just_ doing a degree in translation/linguistics etc. What you need is experience because as translators we don't deal with translation, we deal with the real world and we can only do that if we understand it
Granted.
And if your daily bread is being so unceremoniously 'stolen' by people with no degree in translation...well, shock horror - it might just be because they produce quality work?
It may also be they happen to live in places where 3 cents of a US dollar buys you enough groceries for a fortnight. A win-win situation, wouldn't you say? And one that is shockingly sustainable and will continue to be so for as long as small & medium companies fail to understand the importance of quality company literature.
[Edited at 2006-07-26 15:51] ▲ Collapse
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juvera
Local time: 02:36
English to Hungarian
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| Just a totally biased addition to the theme of generalisation and terminology... | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
Any new graduate starts working with "general" knowledge of his/her profession, and then comes specialization. That works for doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.
Of course I'd be very glad to get an answer to an engineering question from an engineer who knows the subject, but what does that have to do with an engineer TRANSLATING? Does he know language? Does he know translation theory? Does he know grammar? No, he's an engineer! So, from the point of view of terminology, no problem, but when it comes to translation, just leave it to translators.
Right. A new graduate of translation starts working with some general knowledge, and then comes specialization.
Doctors, lawyers, engineers start working with some knowledge of their specialisation, and likely to add to this knowledge by practising it. Not infrequently they start translating simply because they are frustrated by the translations produced by translators not understanding what they are translating.
If I may say so, these doctors, lawyers, etc. are at an advantage. First of all, by spending six-seven years learning a specialised profession they proved themselves to have the mental capacity and agility to learn, and the knowledge they gained is theirs to use.
They also used at least one language to achieve this. That could have been their mother tongue, or maybe a second language.
You are asking: Does he know language? I dare say, yes. He learnt by using a language, and uses it every day. He also knows a special language, the one belonging to his profession. He spent years to learn it.
The newly qualified translator may use general language better, but what else? Translation techniques may help, but these are tools. I know from years of experience, and having to correct test translations in general subjects by the dozen; they need an awful lot of practice to become proficient.
Talking about generalisation; well, you know the definition of the term! You say you are not talking about Dusty or Konstantin and I believe you. But who are you talking about then?
As far as terminology is concerned, let me show you a simple example:
"The present work deals with the fully nonlinear static and dynamic stability analysis of a simplified multi-DOF initially imperfect dissipative model, upon which a constant directional (conservative) vertical step loading of infinitive duration is applied. From the plots it is possible to conclude directly that for all model cases dealt with the global dynamic response is stable, which is the primary advantage of multi-suspension roofs."
I am sure - apart from the acronym - every single word is familiar to you. But who would be able to translate the above sentences to make sense, the person who is well versed in translation theory and technique, or the one who understands the message?
And let's not forget, the original is written by an engineer, who according to you doesn't know language and grammar. I really feel terribly sorry for professional translators with their diplomas - they are miracle-workers - having to translate all that c*** written by illiterate doctors, engineers, lawyers.
The best solution is: translators should translate other translators' superior quality work, and let these poor people translate their own. 
Ooops! I let the cat out of the bag. The text is about roofs.
[Edited at 2006-07-26 16:09]
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Maria Karra wrote:
I agree 100% with you, Dyran. You need to be specialized in some field AND have studied translation (unless you only translate general texts). I'm not saying that having a degree in translation is always necessary (although it's very helpful), but at least one needs to do a lot of background reading, learn about translation techniques (many of our colleagues know absolutely nothing about translation techniques; and that knowledge does not come from experience. You learn about translation techniques by reading about them. What comes with experience is the practice of those techniques.)
(rest of brilliant post)
I agree with that word for word.
Who hasn't been sent texts to proofread as they come from the engineering department of companies that are nearly undecipherable? They may well make sense to fellow engineers, just like a 4-yr-old banter is likely to make sense to other 4-yr-olds, but does entitle them to say, "I can translate"? I think not.
I find it sad that it becomes a question of "us vs them", although it was to be expected, I suppose. Non-graduates are going to defend their right to practise a profession which has by nature extremely blurred boundaries.
However, to suggest that people with no formal linguistic background are often better than graduate professionals is almost maliciously misinformed. As I said above, while it is essential to have proper understanding of a text -which is where specialization comes into play-, accurately rendering a text is an entirely different matter, one that DOES require long academic training, regardless of whether self-made translators would like to acknowledge it.
[Edited at 2006-07-26 16:14]
| | | | | Other considerations | Jul 26, 2006 |
I expect to get it with both barrels, but here goes anyway.
BAmary wrote:
I believe a person cannot turn into a translator overnight. Even if he/she holds a degree in another field. But again, that's just me...
I also believe that if a graduate with a degree in translation has no flair, no talent, when it comes to the turn of phrase, that person will not get very far. It takes more than just a degree in translation to be a good writer.
I've come across plenty of people with degrees in translation whose writing is strictly ho-hum. Just like there are plenty of doctors, lawyers and accountants who are just average.
If by "professional translator" you mean a person who translates for a living, fair enough. But I think you'd be surprised by the number of very GOOD translators who do NOT happen to have a degree in translation. When I was in college no school in my area even offered a degree in translation, and I'm sure many other Proz users will tell you the same thing.
Consider yourself fortunate, but don't look down on others who have gained expertise in other ways. I'm sure our credentials and work are at least as good, if not better.
Catherine
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May I suggest that the webmaster make available BBCodes to us? It is an extreme nuisance to have to type the tags everytime.
Thanks.
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 03:36
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | With Catherine | Jul 26, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
If by "professional translator" you mean a person who translates for a living, fair enough. But I think you'd be surprised by the number of very GOOD translators who do NOT happen to have a degree in translation. When I was in college no school in my area even offered a degree in translation, and I'm sure many other Proz users will tell you the same thing.
Much as I resent having my thread hi-jacked (count the number of off-tangent postings here, guys!), I must agree with Catherine. I spent two and a half years managing the freelance English department of a translation agency, and there was a healthy mix of "trained translators" on the one hand and musicians, actors and other bohemian types on the other and there was little to choose between them. And the best translators I know did not take the most conventional routes there.
Qualifications should not be confused with ability, and at the end of the day, it's ability that counts.
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 03:36
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? | Jul 26, 2006 |
Guys, look at the title of this forum. Could we please leave the "translation degree vs. other degree vs. no degree" for a separate posting.
And now a question to Henry - are there any plans to do anything about the "rubbish" that so many of us are complaining about?
Thanks
Ian
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| Is the profession "freelancer" or translator? | Jul 26, 2006 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
As a freelancer you do not have such an opportunity. There is no formal training path. The day you become a freelance translator you begin providing services to your clients. No training, no work experience, no experienced colleagues to show you how to do the work. For this reason alone, I feel it is extremely important for translators to have a little experience of the world outside translation and understand the processes that cause a project to arrive in their Inbox.
I would say that any "freelancer" of anything (nowadays also called "consultant") would face the same problems you are suggesting.
Thus the rather logical need to learn the trade first, before offering yourself as a "translator".
| | | | | You don't get it | Jul 26, 2006 |
Wainwright wrote:
However, to suggest that people with no formal linguistic background are often better than graduate professionals is almost maliciously misinformed.
Who said that people without a degree in TRANSLATION have no formal linguistic background?? Think again.
As I said above, while it is essential to have proper understanding of a text -which is where specialization comes into play-, accurately rendering a text is an entirely different matter, one that DOES require long academic training, regardless of whether self-made translators would like to acknowledge it.
Just because people do not have a degree in translation does NOT mean that they do not have "long academic training". THAT is where specialization comes into play.
Catherine
| | | | | Please stay on focus | Jul 26, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote:
KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated?
Guys, look at the title of this forum. Could we please leave the "translation degree vs. other degree vs. no degree" for a separate posting.
Ian is right, please keep this thread on focus as stated in http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/4#4
4 Replies should not stray from the posted topic. When responding to a topic initiated by another member, stick to the topic as introduced. To change the discussion, it is necessary to post a new topic.
Thanks,
Enrique
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