| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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Glossarist (X)
English to Bengali
| No, Henry... | Jul 19, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
Actually, in response to member requests, it is possible to ask a not-for-points questions.
Henry, that is no solution at all. Those points have some professional value. All members are graded according to the points earned, not always ethically. That gradation in the directory always makes a difference despite claims or proclamations (!!) to the contrary. There have been instances of creating false profiles simply to earn Kudoz points! You can easily get the help of stooges, amateurs whom you bring into your fold by offering them a few jobs and then they help you to get Kudoz points. The possibility of misuse is limitless.
And then when you read such articles as the "Confessions of a point-grabber" (the only redeeming feature of which is that it reminds you of the title of a book that Thomas DeQuincey wrote long ago?), you are left with nothing but a stifled scream!
| | | | | help should be apprecciated | Jul 19, 2006 |
I appreciate when people try to help making suggestions, giving their answers, and pointing you in the right direction, and personally most of the time their answers have been useful, but it's true that when you post a question you expect that the people who answer are either experts or have experience in the specific field, and if that’s not the case and despite they mean well because they want to help, they at least should take the time to do some research before giving an answer and select ... See more I appreciate when people try to help making suggestions, giving their answers, and pointing you in the right direction, and personally most of the time their answers have been useful, but it's true that when you post a question you expect that the people who answer are either experts or have experience in the specific field, and if that’s not the case and despite they mean well because they want to help, they at least should take the time to do some research before giving an answer and select the correct level of confidence. If not I think it’d be wise to desist from answering at all.
However, I wouldn't call it "rubbish help", I personally find it aggressive, especially if the answerers mean well. But that's me. I'd just call them "wrong answers". Of course, if these people are only thinking of getting points, then that's a different story. Although I don't know how they will get those points when they are giving wrong answers.
Fortunately, most of the time when other colleagues answering to the same question see these people's answers and know that they are wrong, they usually disagree with them (or at least that's what they should do) so that the asker knows that such answer is wrong and that it shouldn't be taken into consideration.
So yes, you can say I appreciate help from others that it's correct or useful in some way to my work. But people should be responsible enough to know when to answer and when it'd better to remain silent to avoid misleading the asker into choosing the wrong answer and including it in the glossary.
[Edited at 2006-07-19 16:56] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 15:33
Portuguese to English
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| More KudoZ to them! | Jul 19, 2006 |
In my opinion, the main problem is that people fail to understand that this is a site for professional translators (or maybe I fail to surrender to the fact that it might be turning into something else). The more newbies we have (and I am not saying that they shouldn’t be welcomed), the more unprepared and inexperienced people we have taking part in every feature of the site, including KudoZ. Consequently, the number of answers (and even questions) substantiated with real expertise has decline... See more In my opinion, the main problem is that people fail to understand that this is a site for professional translators (or maybe I fail to surrender to the fact that it might be turning into something else). The more newbies we have (and I am not saying that they shouldn’t be welcomed), the more unprepared and inexperienced people we have taking part in every feature of the site, including KudoZ. Consequently, the number of answers (and even questions) substantiated with real expertise has declined. It’s mostly the blind leading the blind. And if you happen to be one those experienced translators asking (or answering) a question, you’re not immune to the “rubbish."
When I post a question, I would prefer to have someone who is experienced in the field (or at least knows what the heck I’m talking about) answering that question. I want something more than a dictionary entry or the usual I-found-this-on-google-hope-that-helps-followed-by-smileys guessing game. I’ve seen so many wrong answers suggested lately, with clear evidence that the person suggesting didn’t understand that expression/term in the source language or has absolutely no experience in the field.
I agree that no one should be discourteous or rude to whoever took the time to help (let’s assume here that it isn’t the mad rush to the golden KudoZ points). We do not have a system in place that discourages those people from contributing anyway; hence, the mixed bag of good and out-of-you-know-what answers.
Ironically, as an asker you have a gazillion options as to who can answer - and how they can answer - your questions. As an answerer, the flood gates are open. Which reminds me, what is the point of offering all these options to the askers, if anyone is welcome to answer anyway? It’s like showing up at a party to which you weren't invited. But hey, if that doesn’t make them even bat an eye about it, more kudoZ to them! I guess, there’s always going to be a “party crasher.”
In the ideal world, at least in my opinion, members or users should accumulate a certain number of points in a specific field (perhaps non-pro points, I don't know) before being allowed to suggest anything or required to answer questions in their fields and languages only, but that ain’t gonna happen. So my more realistic recommendation is that members and users should use their common sense and stay away from questions they know nothing (or even very little) about.
I can only speak for myself: yes, I think it’s cute that they want to help, but to me, if the building’s on fire, don’t try to put the fire out with your little buckets. Call the real professionals, a.k.a. firemen, and let them deal with it.
Sormane F. Gomes
[Edited at 2006-07-19 19:14] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 14:33
English to Russian
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| Two different worlds | Jul 19, 2006 |
I believe it is perfectly clear by now that there are two distinctly different groups of Proz users/members - minor, the ones who come for professional communication and do not care for Proz jobs, i.e. points, because the rates are totally unacceptable for them, and major - the ones who are either the beginners or comfortable within prevailing price ranges and come specifically for jobs, i.e. points, which, presumably, must lead to winning clients (which, in turn, will never even be considered a... See more I believe it is perfectly clear by now that there are two distinctly different groups of Proz users/members - minor, the ones who come for professional communication and do not care for Proz jobs, i.e. points, because the rates are totally unacceptable for them, and major - the ones who are either the beginners or comfortable within prevailing price ranges and come specifically for jobs, i.e. points, which, presumably, must lead to winning clients (which, in turn, will never even be considered a win in the first place by the minor group).
Now, I'm going to use the term "elite" for convinience only, OK?
The thing is that the larger group allows Proz to survive financially because Proz can not stay affloat on elite relationships and "highly intelligent chats"only, there will never be enough outsourcers for that. As a minimum, should an elite outsourcer find an elite translator, he/she will cling to him/her and never return to fish for yet a cheaper one.
Resume: we have what we have and it will never change, it simply can not. Proz is a commercial enterprise in the open market environment. The more - the merrier. We are indeed in Take It or Leave It situation.
I'm dying to see Proz "pointless" but it is not economically feasible, it will turn into a forum of intellectuals with banners and ads for a financial support but without any of the support features and resources it currently provides, including jobs. In other words, "Honey, it's a totally different help line":-)
As far as "not-for-points" questions are concerned, I have noticed more than once that there will be at least one "offended" person - Don't you think it was worth awarding? This is why I do not use this feature at all - it's too annoying for me to read such comments. I don't think it is being used often in all pairs.
I didn't mean to stir an old trouble about "cheap but good", and didn't mean to offend anyone in that sense. I will not go into this discussion. I'm implying that Proz inevitably attracts tons of strays and opportunists with little respect for profession and equally little knowledge. Them and their outsourcers deserve each other. Too bad others don't... see 2 paras above...
[Edited at 2006-07-19 16:55] ▲ Collapse
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 13:33
Dutch to English
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| Agree with Henry and Michele | Jul 19, 2006 |
I agree wholeheartedly with Henry: let's discuss the issues and not attack people.
I also agree with Michele that there are other aspects of the Kudoz questions that can be very annoying:
1. wrong answers by those who don't really have a good command of the languages involved (and that includes answerers from other language pairs);
2. people who provide an answer that is only a slight variation on a previous answer, instead of giving an 'agree' and offering... See more I agree wholeheartedly with Henry: let's discuss the issues and not attack people.
I also agree with Michele that there are other aspects of the Kudoz questions that can be very annoying:
1. wrong answers by those who don't really have a good command of the languages involved (and that includes answerers from other language pairs);
2. people who provide an answer that is only a slight variation on a previous answer, instead of giving an 'agree' and offering the alternative suggestion;
3. 'neutral' or 'disagree' responses by people who take issue with an explanation or note added, even though the actual answer is correct;
4. questions by askers who are translating material that is clearly out of their league;
5. questions that askers could easily answer themselves if they looked in a dictionary or searched the internet;
6. questions that provide little or no context; and finally
7. translators who adopt the role of "Kudoz Police" and constantly bicker to others who are not following the rules.
Thanks to everyone for allowing me to have my say. In spite of everything I have said above, I enjoy the challenge of answering Kudoz questions, I have learned an enormous amount from it, and I do my best to ignore the things that are annoying. It would make no difference to me if the points system were to be eliminated.
[Edited at 2006-07-19 16:49]
[Edited at 2006-07-19 16:56] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | no rubbish shall be allowed | Jul 19, 2006 |
It's quite obvious KudoZ has been taken hostage by small people who put questions like «Thank you» (what does this mean?) and then attribute points to their friends just to collect point - God knows for what!
Even when the questions had some justification, I've seen quite often points attibuted to plain rubbish, so I quitted.
| | | | Andy Watkinson 
Spain
Local time: 21:33
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
You said:
"I agree wholeheartedly with Henry: let's discuss the issues and not attack people."
Couldn't agree more. But in this case it's inevitable.
Please refer to the post that started this thread.
Ian W.:
"My reason for posting this thread is to find out what the general feeling is about this issue and, more specifically, whether there is anyone else other than the aforementioned colleague who feels that – and I quote – “Help should b... See more You said:
"I agree wholeheartedly with Henry: let's discuss the issues and not attack people."
Couldn't agree more. But in this case it's inevitable.
Please refer to the post that started this thread.
Ian W.:
"My reason for posting this thread is to find out what the general feeling is about this issue and, more specifically, whether there is anyone else other than the aforementioned colleague who feels that – and I quote – “Help should be appreciated, even if it is rubbish”. "
i.e. what he would like to know is whether this statement is shared by anyone else.
As I said in my post (and contrary to Henry I don't believe my "picture" is "incomplete") in five years on ProZ I've never come across anyone who fully shares not only this person's ideas but also his manner of expressing them.
I, for one, do not appreciate "rubbish".
Cheers,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | | easy to solve | Jul 19, 2006 |
enough "rubbish" votes should invalidate asker's choice
good for the glossary, too
[Editado a las 2006-07-19 18:08]
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 21:33
French to English
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| not for points | Jul 19, 2006 |
Dear Henry,
I must take issue with you over "not for points" questions. I would agree if ALL questions were not for points but, call me stupid, I do not understand why you want to have a mixture of "with points" and "not for points". Who decides not to award points? And on the basis of what criterion?
Surely this "new" category is imply fudging the issue.
Go for it Henry - scrap the points and let's get back to the real business
Meant of course without offence and in the ... See more Dear Henry,
I must take issue with you over "not for points" questions. I would agree if ALL questions were not for points but, call me stupid, I do not understand why you want to have a mixture of "with points" and "not for points". Who decides not to award points? And on the basis of what criterion?
Surely this "new" category is imply fudging the issue.
Go for it Henry - scrap the points and let's get back to the real business
Meant of course without offence and in the nicest possible way.....
Chris ▲ Collapse
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Eva Middleton wrote: Henry wrote: Glossarist wrote:
I know professional translators and paid members for five or more years who have left this site only because of this. And Eva's wish would never be implemented. Such suggestions are not new! Actually, in response to member requests, it is possible to ask a not-for-points questions. How about making it possible to choose to answer a question without being given points for it? It's not the asking that's the problem...
We plan to offer an option to make not-for-points comments in the future. Thank you.
| | | | | Why do you ask for-points questions, CMJ_Trans? | Jul 19, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
In the couple of years or so I've been involved with ProZ, there have been several exchanges on whether or not to scrap the points system. I have always been in favour of its demise and see no reason to change my views today.
Then I am curious: Why do you choose to make your own questions "for points"?
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 21:33
French to English
+ ...
| In answer to Henry, I have never thought about it.... | Jul 19, 2006 |
Frankly Henry,
When I ask questions, I am so busy thinking about the question that I never even consider the points issue. Anyway, as I said in my second posting, a mixture of "with" and "without points" is not logical and only muddies the waters.
Points are the last thing on my mind, as you can see. Also, with hindsight, I consider that it would be churlish to deprive colleagues who want points from the chance to earn them.
I know it may not seem logical, especially given tha... See more Frankly Henry,
When I ask questions, I am so busy thinking about the question that I never even consider the points issue. Anyway, as I said in my second posting, a mixture of "with" and "without points" is not logical and only muddies the waters.
Points are the last thing on my mind, as you can see. Also, with hindsight, I consider that it would be churlish to deprive colleagues who want points from the chance to earn them.
I know it may not seem logical, especially given that the points cannot be traded in for presents or free flights or what have you....
So, to avoid this type of problem, let's just scrap the points..... ▲ Collapse
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| We favor personal choice, CMJ_Trans | Jul 19, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
Frankly Henry,
When I ask questions, I am so busy thinking about the question that I never even consider the points issue. Anyway, as I said in my second posting, a mixture of "with" and "without points" is not logical and only muddies the waters.
It sounds like you are arguing against personal choice. That is an interesting twist around here lately. (But a bit outside of our development philosophy!)
Points are the last thing on my mind, as you can see. Also, with hindsight, I consider that it would be churlish to deprive colleagues who want points from the chance to earn them.
An interesting point of view. But you should have no reason to worry - if it really matters to an answerer, s/he will just skip your questions (if you did actually make them not-for-points.)
So, to avoid this type of problem, let's just scrap the points.....
I am sorry, but I still favor personal choice. And when you and most other askers continue to go with "for-points" questions, you can see how we conclude that people like to have them available at least as an option.
If you think that you'll get better discourse, please go with not-for-points in the future. It is your choice, after all.
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 21:33
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | @ Michele and Henry | Jul 19, 2006 |
Thanks for all the input so far.
@ Henry: I wouldn't go so far as to describe my post as "attacking" someone - if you'd like an example of that, then I can give you some choice examples courtesy of an absent friend.
You wrote: "Mats has also argued (ironically enough, in light of the selected quotes) for tolerance." Sorry, but this has nothing to do with tolerance and everything to do with creating an environment in which point-grabbers can go about their business witho... See more Thanks for all the input so far.
@ Henry: I wouldn't go so far as to describe my post as "attacking" someone - if you'd like an example of that, then I can give you some choice examples courtesy of an absent friend.
You wrote: "Mats has also argued (ironically enough, in light of the selected quotes) for tolerance." Sorry, but this has nothing to do with tolerance and everything to do with creating an environment in which point-grabbers can go about their business without having their sensitive feelings hurt. I have no objection to point-grabbers who provide quality answers, but this is rarely the case in my opinion.
@Michele: You wrote "Ian, I understand your frustration at the occasional "rubbish" answer, but don't you think that through peer review, the system is self-regulating? Anyone who posts such crap in the DE-->EN subcommunity gets hammered with disagrees (at least in my experience). "
Perhaps things are different in the German-English technical/medical questions that I have little experience of, but in my opinion, the system is not self-regulating. In my experience, this is because - and this is far less the case in German-English than in other pairings - answerers who post "crap" [your word!] are frequently backed up by others who post "crap".
In short, the problem isn't that there is an "occasional" rubbish answer, the problem is that there are often far more bad answers than good. And such an environment cannot be self-regulating.
In my opinion, unless things get better, all self-respecting professionals will eventually fold up their tents and steal away into the night. And unless outsourcers are looking for people who can locate the word for "cat" in 25 different languages, I fail to see how this will benefit the site and its owners in the long run. ▲ Collapse
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 21:33
French to English
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| A clever way with words.... | Jul 19, 2006 |
Sorry to come back at you Henry but you have rather twisted my words. To say that you favour personal choice and infer that I don't is a fine example of a syllogism in my book.
Just tell me one thing, however, what use are the dreaded points? Can you give me an example of how they have made a difference?
I would genuinely like to understand.
What I also don't understand is how you can have questions for and not for points coexisting. It's neither fish nor fowl and that, to me, ... See more Sorry to come back at you Henry but you have rather twisted my words. To say that you favour personal choice and infer that I don't is a fine example of a syllogism in my book.
Just tell me one thing, however, what use are the dreaded points? Can you give me an example of how they have made a difference?
I would genuinely like to understand.
What I also don't understand is how you can have questions for and not for points coexisting. It's neither fish nor fowl and that, to me, is the real issue.
Please do not think I am being argumentative. I am merely confused. ▲ Collapse
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