| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16] > | KudoZ: should "rubbish" help be appreciated? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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BAmary (X) 
Canada
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
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Niamh Ruddy wrote:
Four years of a translation degree is generally not a great qualification. Most people come out not knowing much about anything because the levels (at least in primary degrees) are so low.
I'm sorry to hear you say that. Four years of a translation degree might not be a great qualification in your country, but at least what I studied for (four years in Law School to become a legal translator) gave me a very strong foundation to start from.
Any new graduate starts working with "general" knowledge of his/her profession, and then comes specialization. That works for doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc.
Of course I'd be very glad to get an answer to an engineering question from an engineer who knows the subject, but what does that have to do with an engineer TRANSLATING? Does he know language? Does he know translation theory? Does he know grammar? No, he's an engineer! So, from the point of view of terminology, no problem, but when it comes to translation, just leave it to translators.
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
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| Telling it like it is | Jul 26, 2006 |
Niamh Ruddy wrote:
Most of the rubbish comes from people who have little idea of the subject area in question, perhaps do not understand the source text or the underlying meaning or are unprofessional enough to think that just anything will do. This is a MENTALITY problem. It has nothing to do with having a translation degree.
True.
In my book those are not translators, regardless of their degrees.
--
Dyran
(who got into translation through a side door)
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
United States
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
| The best of both worlds | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
Of course I'd be very glad to get an answer to an engineering question from an engineer who knows the subject, but what does that have to do with an engineer TRANSLATING? Does he know language? Does he know translation theory? Does he know grammar? No, he's an engineer! So, from the point of view of terminology, no problem, but when it comes to translation, just leave it to translators.
Well, yes and no.
After many years of doing revisions (both technical and non-technical), I can say with confidence that the best translations I've seen (in my language pairs) come from translators who have a degree in anything other than translation, *and* have completed advanced linguistics studies (either as a masters degree or as specialized courses) in *both* their source and target languages.
I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case for all other languages.
--
Dyran
[Edited at 2006-07-26 14:42]
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 11:51
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | From an engineeer turned translator... | Jul 26, 2006 |
I really have to take issue with Maria's claim that a 'qualified' translator per se is bound to be better than a professional in a specific field (in my case, technical...)
In fact, it is my observation that the majority of the 'rubbish' answers come from (supposedly) professional translators, possibly inexperienced, who haven't yet learned that sometimes there are myriad special translations of a term in often quite narrow fields. They are the ones who fall back on "I must b... See more I really have to take issue with Maria's claim that a 'qualified' translator per se is bound to be better than a professional in a specific field (in my case, technical...)
In fact, it is my observation that the majority of the 'rubbish' answers come from (supposedly) professional translators, possibly inexperienced, who haven't yet learned that sometimes there are myriad special translations of a term in often quite narrow fields. They are the ones who fall back on "I must be right, because I found it in X dictionary"
If I come out with a rubbish answer, I will have dredged it up somewhere from the back of my own mind; provided I have correctly read the question (and I believe I usually do), it will be at least in some way relevant, and based on actual experience, even if as must sometimes be the case, it is slightly skewed from the meaning Asker needs.
So I don't think one should generalize. I believe it is perfectly possible for someone like myself, who has 20+ years professional experience in various technical fields, to move into translation on the basis of good general language skills, experience in technical communication, and good exposure to the source language (in my case, FR) — and believe me, living in the country, immersed in the culture, really does help! Naturally, with the caveat that I am working in fields where my experience is relevant — as Maria says, to work in legal, you certainly need legal training of some sort, and so on...
What is a far more fundamental requirement, as has already been stated in this thread, is the application of some basic intelligence, wide-ranging language experience, and a high level of general culture; plus a well-honed technique for self-criticism and re-examination. Not forgetting, of course, a good grasp of at least elementary research techniques!
As an editor of technical translations, I have to say it is immediately obvious when someone (however experienced or highly-qualified they are as a translator) is simply out of their depth in a technical document; it is clear that they are not familiar with the language / register used in that style of document, and/or display a fundamental failure to understand the process or whatever that is being described. If you know about that, or a similar, field you will start off already with an idea of what to expect, so you can check the technical logic of what you are translating.
In some (quite a few!) cases, I have been able to go back to a translation client and say "look here, this doesn't seem to make sense, can you confirm there isn't a mistake in the original?" — and it's surprising just how often they've had to come back and say "Yes, you're right, thank goodness you spotted our mistake!"
So I would say that there can be multiple routes into translation, all of which have the same fundamental requirements. And self-awareness and continuous self-criticism are arguably the most important of these!
[Edited at 2006-07-26 08:09] ▲ Collapse
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Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 12:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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| Just look around | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but I really feel disrespected when someone writes in their professional line "John Doe, engineer become translator". What if we do it the other way round? Can I say Maria Takacs, translator become engineer? Pretty unprofessional, right?
...and you will see thousand of real life examples here, at ProZ and KudoZ, and they prove the opposite and show that a lot of great professionals have no official degree in translation. I mean building any theories and generalizing makes our worldview simpler and helps us to feel better about ourselves, still please pay some attention to the real world around you. I know this sort of our colleagues who never go to bed without kissing their diploma first to have so sweet dreams about their own superiority, still I prefer to see some real and done work to judge about any skills instead of some ephemeric and generalized opinions like "If no degree, you are not professional" - and I don't really care if a professional shows me a pack of certificates but does a bad job after this. The end result is what matters.
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 11:51
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Bravo, Kirill! | Jul 26, 2006 |
Kirill Semenov wrote:
...I prefer to see some real and done work to judge about any skills instead of some ephemeric and generalized opinions like "If no degree, you are not professional" - and I don't really care if a professional shows me a pack of certificates but does a bad job after this. The end result is what matters.
Well said that man!
| | | | | Gross generalizations/running in circles | Jul 26, 2006 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
After many years of doing revisions (both technical and non-technical), I can say with conficence that the best translations I've seen (in my language pairs) come from translators who have a degree in anything other than translation, *and* have completed advanced linguistics studies (either as a masters degree or as specialized courses) in *both* their source and target languages.
Dyran
(who got into translation through a side door)
Dyran
Kirill Semenov wrote:
I know this sort of our colleagues who never go to bed without kissing their diploma first to have so sweet dreams about their own superiority
I think that generalizing either way (non-translation degree people vs. translation degree people) is a dead end. Obviously you have language-gifted individuals who might happen to be *also* gifted enough in other areas, as well as the other way around.
But I certainly understand BAMary's point about stressing the "pride" and obvious importance of being a translator who has spent time studying translation.
Translation is, like many other professions, usually the result of teamwork, where a translator (basically an expert in languages with one or more specializations) does the bigger part of the work and then this is approved/reviewed by a chain of other professionals, including specific experts who have a better technical knowledge accuracy.
So there is certainly a logic to having specifically translation-trained people/professionals.
But getting back to KudoZ, yes, obviously any *public* website like Proz.com is bound to have a bit of a mess in Kudoz and possibly other areas, because unless you have real strict control mechanisms (which this discussion or previous similar discussions don't seem to have generated to date, considering some of the more active members/users' comments in this respect), how can you keep away any self-proclaimed translators from participating in Proz.com or posting questions in KudoZ? (assuming they are the ones posting the "rubbish" questions/answers)
So, once again, it looks like we keep coming back to the obvious fact that this is a site-policy-related problem, not necessarily a KudoZ problem.
| | | | | 4 years of a degree < 1 year of experience | Jul 26, 2006 |
It's amusing that here we have, yet again, someone attempting to generalise about something that by its very nature cannot be generalised about. It is my impression that due to the nature of the job (having to know 2 languages to near-native level) the majority of translators have a non-standard or even unusual background.
And the comparison with law or medicine always makes me weep. Hello? Does an English-speaking doctor need to know anything about Urdu for a medical condition? Do... See more It's amusing that here we have, yet again, someone attempting to generalise about something that by its very nature cannot be generalised about. It is my impression that due to the nature of the job (having to know 2 languages to near-native level) the majority of translators have a non-standard or even unusual background.
And the comparison with law or medicine always makes me weep. Hello? Does an English-speaking doctor need to know anything about Urdu for a medical condition? Does a lawyer need to have a sound understanding of video game development or shipping?
Imho, it is actually a lot more difficult to become a *good* translator by _just_ doing a degree in translation/linguistics etc. What you need is experience because as translators we don't deal with translation, we deal with the real world and we can only do that if we understand it
As for Kudoz, we have the perfect example of an extremely qualified individual in my language pairs. His qualifications, diplomas and certificates are overwhelmingly impressive. It's a pity, however, that he doesn't speak/write either of the languages he claims to translate from/into with any degree of fluency.
And if your daily bread is being so unceremoniously 'stolen' by people with no degree in translation...well, shock horror - it might just be because they produce quality work?
When I look for people to outsource work to I pretty much ignore their degree but that's just me. ▲ Collapse
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Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 05:51
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| translation knowledge + other degree | Jul 26, 2006 |
Dyran wrote: After many years of doing revisions (both technical and non-technical), I can say with conficence that the best translations I've seen (in my language pairs) come from translators who have a degree in anything other than translation, *and* have completed advanced linguistics studies (either as a masters degree or as specialized courses) in *both* their source and target languages.
I agree 100% with you, Dyran. You need to be specialized in some field AND have studied translation (unless you only translate general texts). I'm not saying that having a degree in translation is always necessary (although it's very helpful), but at least one needs to do a lot of background reading, learn about translation techniques (many of our colleagues know absolutely nothing about translation techniques; and that knowledge does not come from experience. You learn about translation techniques by reading about them. What comes with experience is the practice of those techniques.)
Maria, I do understand your point and I sympathize. It aggravates me to see engineers turn translators without even bothering to learn what translation is all about. (Here I'm asking my fellow engineers not to take this personally.) I admire those engineers who have a passion for languages and get translation training (or even train themselves). I do not admire those engineers who happened to speak a second language and turned translators from one day to the next because they couldn't get a job in engineering.
Another thing that bothers me is all the self-proclaimed linguists. I got quite upset the other day when I saw a new Prozian in one of my language pairs call herself a "Linguist" in her motto, while clearly stating in her profile that she is currently studying translation in some small private school I've never heard of. She's not a translator (yet), and she's certainly not a linguist! So what's a linguist? Someone who speaks a second language and takes a couple of classes in translation? I find this aggravating and quite arrogant, to say the least.
Konstantin wrote:
And if your daily bread is being so unceremoniously 'stolen' by people with no degree in translation...well, shock horror - it might just be because they produce quality work?
Could be. It could also be that their rates are extremely low because they have to start from somewhere, they have to prove themselves in some way. We don't know. There are exceptions. They may have read books about the theory and practice of translatio, and they've become really good at what they do. It's hard to tell. As others wrote before, we can't generalize.
Maria
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
| About generalization | Jul 26, 2006 |
If you read my posting attentively, you must've noticed I said I didn't want to generalize because there are translators without degrees who are good professionals. But it seems you are all talking about terminology here. I'm sure a doctor translating medicine will understand the text better than anyone else and will know all the terminology without having to turn to a dictionary or research the Internet. But there's much more to translation than terminology. And that is why there is a program i... See more If you read my posting attentively, you must've noticed I said I didn't want to generalize because there are translators without degrees who are good professionals. But it seems you are all talking about terminology here. I'm sure a doctor translating medicine will understand the text better than anyone else and will know all the terminology without having to turn to a dictionary or research the Internet. But there's much more to translation than terminology. And that is why there is a program in university: to teach future translators about all those other topics related to the profession and that are difficult to learn otherwise.
Of course experience and specialization are important, of course when you start as a newbie translator you don't know much, but isn't that something that happens to all professionals in all fields?
I would like to repeat (once more) that I'm perfectly aware that the fact of having a degree doesn't make a person automatically good, but it's a place to start from, that's for sure. I am very proud of what I do, and very proud of all the effort and dedication I put into getting my degree, and after twelve years of doing this, I know I have improved and I want to go on studying and improving, but it’s hard for me to understand how in this profession there are so many people who just got here by chance, and how in most of other professions, people who practise are graduates.
Again, my postings are not meant to offend anyone (and certainly were not aimed at Dusty), but I’d like to say what I think because I really believe all translators should have at least some training in the subject-matter. It’s hard for me to swallow that most of the people actually think you don’t need to go to school to become a translator.
If after this you decide to hate me or never agree with me again in an answer because I think differently, well so be it. I thought it was important to express my ideas about it.
And just for you to know, I don't kiss my degree before going to bed. I don't even have it in a frame! ▲ Collapse
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BAmary wrote:
But it seems you are all talking about terminology here.
... probably because this is a thread about KudoZ
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
| About generalization again | Jul 26, 2006 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
And if your daily bread is being so unceremoniously 'stolen' by people with no degree in translation...well, shock horror - it might just be because they produce quality work?
No need to be nasty. This is just my opinion. I never said I was talking about Konstantin.
And I said at least three times I'm not generalizing...
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BAmary wrote:
Of course experience and specialization are important, of course when you start as a newbie translator you don't know much, but isn't that something that happens to all professionals in all fields?
Yes and no. In most professions you are likely to start as a rookie, however most professions also offer you a training path that allows you to learn on the job whilst being mentored by experienced colleagues.
As a freelancer you do not have such an opportunity. There is no formal training path. The day you become a freelance translator you begin providing services to your clients. No training, no work experience, no experienced colleagues to show you how to do the work. For this reason alone, I feel it is extremely important for translators to have a little experience of the world outside translation and understand the processes that cause a project to arrive in their Inbox.
At the end of the day, you can only translate something you understand. If you only understand translation then you are only able to translate texts about translation.
I am not being nasty and I have nothing against anyone holding any particular view on this issue. What I object to is your suggestion that somehow Proz.com should adopt your view and enforce it on its members.
Maria Karra wrote:
Could be. It could also be that their rates are extremely low because they have to start from somewhere, they have to prove themselves in some way.
I don't agree. Competition on price suggests similar quality. If someone can 'steal' one of my clients by halving the rate either they're just as good as me or the client doesn't care about quality. Whichever is true, I see no reason why that client shouldn't be 'stolen' from me in those circumstances.
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
I am not being nasty and I have nothing against anyone holding any particular view on this issue. What I object to is your suggestion that somehow Proz.com should adopt your view and enforce it on its members.
Konstantin, I clearly said this was MY opinion. I'm not suggesting all members should adopt it. I'm just saying that I believe in education and then specialization, pretty much what Maria said in her posting. Again, sorry if I offended someone. I believe a person cannot turn into a translator overnight. Even if he/she holds a degree in another field. But again, that's just me...
| | | | | misunderstanding? | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
If this is a site for professional translators, why not start by making sure that its members actually ARE professional translators?
Is this not a request for the site to adopt your view? If not, my apologies.
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