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KudoZ versus terminology mailing lists
Thread poster: xxxMihai Badea
xxxMihai Badea  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
Aug 2, 2006

This subject was brought into discussion on the "Confession of a KudoZ limits supporter" thread but, as this is not about KudoZ limits, I thought it would be better to open a new thread.

MarcPrior wrote:

I prefer such lists, particularly the private or semi-public (i.e. with open membership, but requiring a log-in) lists, for two reasons. Firstly, if I'm unsure of a term, I can consult colleagues without informing anyone capable of using Google of the fact. Besides the image issue, there is also one of confidentiality: I can often justify publishing one sentence from a customer's text when I know that it will be read by 150 fellow members of my professional association, but would not be willing to post it where it can be found by any search engine spider.

Marc


Questions can be asked privately on Proz.com as well. I did it several times so far. All you have to do is to create a team. Then, you can target the questions at the members of your team exclusively. These questions can not be seen by the public or by the search engine spiders.

Secondly, proper discussion is not impeded on these lists by having to take place within the framework of a party game. The party game has a certain appeal, I admit, but once the novelty has worn off, it's just an obstacle. As anyone with experience of proper terminology discussion lists knows, a system which attempts to define terminology issues in terms of a quiz with a question and a range of possible answers is far too simplistic.”


I agree with you on this issue. Although I like the game and I participate in it actively, sometimes I would simply like to be able to add an extensive comment; at this moment, unless one wants to enter his/her own answer and engage himself/herself in the competition for the points, one can only use the agree/neutral/disagree box or the Ask the Asker box in order to make comments (and the space is really very limited). But hopefully the staff will be able to provide us with a solution soon. I think a kind of mini-forum for every question (on the same page with the answers) would be just great. This way, we could have both the game and the terminology discussions which are now possible in the mailing lists. What do you think?

[Edited at 2006-08-02 17:20]


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 22:19
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
If everyone creates their own team... Aug 2, 2006

...we would end in total confusion. These existing lists (at least I can speak for the Finnish Translat-group) results in about 100 or more messages daily. Thankfully some people manage to follow these up and even provide answers along with their daily work, but I just cannot do more than throw in a questions once a while. As a tool Kudoz is easier, but it has its drawbacks.
Of course every professional translator should have a network of specialist for various fields, they must not be translators but workers in the field, and they are contacted by phone. Very much recommended!

Regards
Heinrich


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:19
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
Discussion is possible Aug 2, 2006

MarcPrior wrote:

Secondly, proper discussion is not impeded on these lists by having to take place within the framework of a party game. The party game has a certain appeal, I admit, but once the novelty has worn off, it's just an obstacle. As anyone with experience of proper terminology discussion lists knows, a system which attempts to define terminology issues in terms of a quiz with a question and a range of possible answers is far too simplistic.


First of all, thanks Mihai for posting this as a separate thread.

I do not agree with Marc here. I have not taken part in a terminology list for a long time because it was just too much. Too many emails flooding my inbox asking for terms I didn't know. Too many different "threads" to follow. Some nauseating people who just had to comment on everything all the time (bit like me at the moment? I promise to shut up soon).

KudoZ is a much easier layout to grasp. One page per question. So easy to switch off and now you can even set it to receive only the questions you really want to see, which means my inbox isn't flooded and I actually feel I can respond to some of the requests for help. And I have always managed to have meaningful discussions with the answerers to my questions when this was necessary. Perhaps this is why I am trying to find ways of improving KudoZ, because I don't want to give up on it and have to start up a terminology list!


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:19
German to English
+ ...
KudoZ versus terminology mailing lists Aug 2, 2006

Nikki Graham wrote:

I have not taken part in a terminology list for a long time because it was just too much. Too many emails flooding my inbox asking for terms I didn't know. Too many different "threads" to follow. Some nauseating people who just had to comment on everything all the time (bit like me at the moment? I promise to shut up soon).


You and I must subscribe to different lists.

Marc


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 16:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
Like in WikedWords? Aug 2, 2006

I think a kind of mini-forum for every question (on the same page with the answers) would be just great. This way, we could have both the game and the terminology discussions which are now possible in the mailing lists. What do you think?


If you mean something like the concept discussion that's available in WikiWords (which, incidentally, proves that it's technically possible in ProzWorld), then I agree that it would be useful.

There are many occasions where more detail needs to be given than can be accommodated in the agree/disagree box. I had a case earlier today, where someone was making incorrect assertions about the status of a broadcasting organization which I happen to know rather well, and it would have taken at least 1000 characters to explain the true facts and add a web reference).

MediaMatrix


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 21:19
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
We agree Nikki, Aug 2, 2006

I definitely prefer KudoZ to mailing lists.

I ahev participated in both and I abstain from mailing list and prefer KudoZ for 3 main reasons:

1. KudoZ delivers much better answers. 'From the hip answers' are typical of lists. You are ready to help but you are not ready to do research.
With KudoZ you can at least get a reward, which is of value in your profession

2. The reasons Nikki meantions. Lists are so blunt, have no selection or filtering mechanisms. You haven't got the time to indulge.

3. Peer judgements are much better organised in the KudoZ arena and you learn and get help in forming a judgement.


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Linguasphere
France
Local time: 21:19
Spanish to French
+ ...
What a good idea ! Aug 3, 2006

I agree with you on this issue. Although I like the game and I participate in it actively, sometimes I would simply like to be able to add an extensive comment; at this moment, unless one wants to enter his/her own answer and engage himself/herself in the competition for the points, one can only use the agree/neutral/disagree box or the Ask the Asker box in order to make comments (and the space is really very limited). But hopefully the staff will be able to provide us with a solution soon. I think a kind of mini-forum for every question (on the same page with the answers) would be just great. This way, we could have both the game and the terminology discussions which are now possible in the mailing lists. What do you think?

[Edited at 2006-08-02 17:20] [/quote]

I agree totally with this suggestion. I am not really interested in the battle about limiting or not limiting the number of questions that may be asked in Kudoz, but this suggestion is very interesting.
I often want to add a note about a peer's answer but I do not want to agree or disagree. I just want to add something I know or I think regarding this question or ask the answerer to be more precised if, for example, I do not really understand his/her answer or if something is missing or not very clear. My only option today is neutral but it is not really what I want to express and sometimes, I do not add a comment just for that reason. And indeed, the agree/disagree or ask asker boxes are too small and we cannot explain exactly what we are speaking about or looking for.

I hope this suggestion will be heard by the Proz' team in the same way as the Kudoz questions limit problem.

[Edited at 2006-08-03 05:33]


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 21:19
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
With whom and what?? Aug 3, 2006

virgynet wrote:

I agree with you on this issue.
I agree totally with this suggestion.
I hope this suggestion will be heard by the Proz' team


With whom??

With what suggestion??


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Linguasphere
France
Local time: 21:19
Spanish to French
+ ...
The suggestion made by Mihai Aug 3, 2006

Mats Wiman wrote:

virgynet wrote:

I agree with you on this issue.
I agree totally with this suggestion.
I hope this suggestion will be heard by the Proz' team


With whom??

With what suggestion??


Thank you for your questions.
I agree totally with the suggestion of Mihai which starts at "I agree with you on this issue" and ends at "What do you think?".

My own comment starts at "I agree totally with this suggestion" i.e to have other options than agree/neutral/disagree and have another box that permits to add comments on a peer's answer or ask questions with more than 250 characters (I did not remember the exact number) and without to have to choose between disagree/neutral/agree.

Is that clearer? Sorry I am not familiar with the "reply with quote option" and the separation between Mihai's comment and mine is not very clear.


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:19
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
I'm glad we agree on something, Mats Aug 3, 2006

Mats Wiman wrote:

We agree Nikki
I definitely prefer KudoZ to mailing lists.


I also agree with the idea of making the comment boxes larger so that people are not forced to answer the question themselves when they only want to make a comment about another answer.


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:19
French to English
I think it's deliberate Aug 3, 2006

Nikki Graham wrote:

I also agree with the idea of making the comment boxes larger so that people are not forced to answer the question themselves when they only want to make a comment about another answer.


I have very often commented about other answers within my own answer. Often so as to be able to give a decent explanation as to why a particular answer is not, in my opinion, suitable, and usually in borderline cases, along the lines of "well, you *could* express it like that, but I prefer this because.....". Rather than just give it a "neutral" and then post my own answer and hope the asker can read between the lines.

However, in another recent kudoz discussion, the following rule was pointed out:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.4#3.4

So I suspect the current sitation is deliberate. Not having been here since the very beginning, I can only guess that in the early days there was a lot of slagging off going on, since I really don't think this is the kind of rule one would think up unprompted.

As I've said, it's a rule I've broken countless times, if the rule were to be followed to the letter, anyway, so can hardly be said to agree with it, but I thought I'd save Enrique the trouble of posting a link to it


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:19
Partial member (2003)
Spanish to English
Aren't we talking about two different things? Aug 3, 2006

Charlie Bavington wrote:

Nikki Graham wrote:

I also agree with the idea of making the comment boxes larger so that people are not forced to answer the question themselves when they only want to make a comment about another answer.


I have very often commented about other answers within my own answer.
However, in another recent kudoz discussion, the following rule was pointed out:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.4#3.4

As I've said, it's a rule I've broken countless times


Perhaps I haven't explained myself very well, but I think we're talking about two different things. The issue seems to be that people want more discussion in KudoZ and they don't want to be forced to provide an answer to a question in order to dicuss it in more depth (especially if the reliability ratio were to be introduced, as this would obviously have a negative effect on it). So the suggestion is to make the boxes where we explain our agree/neutral/disagree comments larger. And also to change the rules for the "ask the asker" box, so that it can be used for discussion purposes (it already is in the SP-EN section).

With regards to the rule you're talking about, not commenting on another person's answer in your own answer, well, I've broken that rule lots of times too (just haven't seen how I could answer the question properly without doing so), but please don't tell anyone.

Regards

Nikki "not-from-big-brother" Graham
(how could anyone confuse me with a woman whose main ambition in life is to be a footballer's wife!)

[Edited at 2006-08-03 14:34]

[Edited at 2006-08-03 14:48]


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 13:19
German to English
KudoZ as a discussion forum Aug 3, 2006

Charlie Bavington wrote:

I have very often commented about other answers within my own answer. Often so as to be able to give a decent explanation as to why a particular answer is not, in my opinion, suitable, and usually in borderline cases, along the lines of "well, you *could* express it like that, but I prefer this because.....". Rather than just give it a "neutral" and then post my own answer and hope the asker can read between the lines.

However, in another recent kudoz discussion, the following rule was pointed out:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.4#3.4

As I've said, it's a rule I've broken countless times, if the rule were to be followed to the letter, anyway, so can hardly be said to agree with it ...


This rule needs to be revisited, Charlie.

3.4 The only acceptable means of commenting on another's answer is by using the peer comment feature. Using the answer posting form or the answer explanation box to comment on another's suggestions is not allowed.

I think this rule was created to fix particular problems, such as using the ask-the-asker box to campaign against someone's answer and using the answer posting form not to propose a new answer but for the sole purpose of attacking another answer. But we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

I've sometimes entered "In support of Joe Schmo" and provided background information and references that I found while researching the question. After spending maybe half an hour researching a question and then going back to the page only to find that in the meantime someone else has provided the answer I was about to give, I will then agree with the answer and add my own research results.


[Edited at 2006-08-03 14:45]

[Edited at 2006-08-03 14:51]


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xxxMihai Badea  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Expanding the existing boxes or creating a separate discussion space Aug 7, 2006

Thanks everybody for your comments.

mediamatrix wrote:

Like in WikedWords?



I don’t know exactly how a concept discussion looks like in Wikiwords (I couldn’t find any such discussion), but the space dedicated to this purpose seems to be unlimited, which is good. I would like to see such a space in KudoZ as well.

An option would be, of course, to expand the agree/neutral/disagree box and the Ask the Asker box, but I think a Wikiewords-like forum would still be preferable because the discussion would be easier to follow (all the comments would be in a chronological order).

[Edited at 2006-08-07 15:23]


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