| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Born-again (and self-proclaimed) "natives"? Thread poster: Francis Lee (X)
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Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 16:47
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I still have serious doubts | Sep 21, 2006 |
Brandis wrote:
may be you should attend a pow pow
Hi! That should fairly answer your doubts.
Brandis, I have for various reasons so far been unable to attend a powwow. What exactly do you mean?
Brandis wrote:
well then, not all translators are natives
and not all natives are born translators. How to solve? I think this dilemma would persist to exist in any autonomous environment. Well proz.com is such an environment, it is transparent and flexble.
Hmmmm .... What exactly are you trying to say there? Please expand!!
Anyway ... Lots of side-issues here, but I shall attempt to focus.
I myself joined Proz.com 2 years ago on a non-paying basis, solely out of interest in the Kudoz site. I was not asked to prove any of my credentials - which, given the sheer size, is understandable on the part of Proz.com.
From my experience, there are very few genuine dual-natives out there. Of the many people I've met in my language pair who e.g.
- grew up in Germany but had one or even two English-speaking parents
- are "German" and attended an international school or (typically) a few years at a US high school
(or vice-versa)
... I can only think of 1 or 2 who are dual-native, although most have a good or even excellent command of both languages - which makes them no different to the rest of us.
I, for one, will no longer be able to take the site seriously unless this issue is resolved.
I would suggest that all colleagues professing to be dual-native are vetted IN PERSON. For the time being, they would be welcome to state one native language and include all relevant background information regarding the other. Which might not make a big difference, because the vast majority of self-proclaimed Ger/Eng dual-natives here provide no such information anyway. In fact, many arouse suspicion due to the very lack thereof, i.e. they keep their details to as minimum.
Nobody expects the English Inquisition: indeed! Put them in a comfy chair and then all will be revealed ...
| | | | Refugio
Local time: 07:47
Spanish to English
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| Bilingual v. biliterate | Sep 21, 2006 |
I know many people who are genuinely bilingual in oral conversations, including two of my daughters. They are able to interpret quite well in their field (law). But with great integrity they do not attempt to claim biliteracy for translation purposes. I think this is true of many bilinguals. There is one native language in which they are fully literate for purposes of writing and translating, and another "native" language in which they are orally fluent but perhaps not up on the finer points of ... See more I know many people who are genuinely bilingual in oral conversations, including two of my daughters. They are able to interpret quite well in their field (law). But with great integrity they do not attempt to claim biliteracy for translation purposes. I think this is true of many bilinguals. There is one native language in which they are fully literate for purposes of writing and translating, and another "native" language in which they are orally fluent but perhaps not up on the finer points of grammar and usage. There are a very few people who can really write in English with native polish (such as Nabokov, Conrad and Singer). There are even some Prozians whose English is amazingly good, but still not quite native (interestingly, several of them are Russian...is there an affinity of languages, or have they had superb teachers?). But in my view, we should only list one native language per translator. Then they can add below the pairs which they feel comfortable translating. This would eliminate the fake English natives if the "no changes" rule were firmly enforced. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Brandis (X)
Local time: 16:47
English to German
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| I keep repeating myself francis | Sep 22, 2006 |
That not all natives are true speakers or forget their writing skills, and make native translators and not all translators are true natives. This is a vast area of expanding upon possible solutions that one might seek and implement successfully. Lately, I mean during the 90´s there is a full fledged to undergo a professional degree training in translation area. But the rapidity of the technology development leaves these top qualified and certified people behind. Why else do you think that ther... See more That not all natives are true speakers or forget their writing skills, and make native translators and not all translators are true natives. This is a vast area of expanding upon possible solutions that one might seek and implement successfully. Lately, I mean during the 90´s there is a full fledged to undergo a professional degree training in translation area. But the rapidity of the technology development leaves these top qualified and certified people behind. Why else do you think that there are a range of native doctorates and or fully educated professionals in this industry, and all are confronted mainly with technological development and having been forced to confront it or master it in their own time. No university teaches this. I guess these are true swimmers, afterall one doesn´t have to teach the fish to swim. This point you have raised will remain persistent from my perspective, you cannot justtify being a true native and being a true translator. These are different things. Big gap there buddy. A true translating professional may not get enough exposure, just as someone who knows to start with his time, with which I meant a different dimension of professionalism. This would remain to be an endless discusssion, just as when it comes to universal usage of language and term standardization (a field of research all by itself) The confusion part is, that the term standardization could lead to price drop, a talented tranlsating professional automatically adapts to personal skills ( marketing one´s own skills) That is as far as I can go. Best Brandis ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Wise words perhaps, pity it's not English! | Sep 22, 2006 |
Brandis wrote:
That not all natives are true speakers or forget their writing skills, and make native translators and not all translators are true natives.
etc.
Hi Brandis,
Would you mind telling us where that brand of native English is spoken?
I know people who can write better English than that yet apologise that their English is poor. They'd never even dream of calling themselves native speakers. Maybe it depends on how you define "native". I'd be interested in your definition?
Interesting topic.
C
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Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 07:47
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Shedding light on the issue | Sep 22, 2006 |
Brandis wrote:
I keep repeating myself francis
Maybe so, sort of hard to tell. But I do welcome your posts, Brandis. I find them quite enlightening and illustrative of the issues raised here.
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Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
Hi Brandis,
Would you mind telling us where that brand of native English is spoken?
I know people who can write better English than that yet apologise that their English is poor. They'd never even dream of calling themselves native speakers. Maybe it depends on how you define "native". I'd be interested in your definition?
Interesting topic.
C
Perfect example of what Francis is talking about.
FWIW,
Catherine
| | | | cmwilliams (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:47
French to English
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This thread certainly highlights the need for some sort of native language verification to eliminate any false claims.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 16:47
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
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| Being a native speaker does not necessarily mean proficiency in that language... | Sep 23, 2006 |
Dear colleagues,
I'd like to add two thoughts that might help to explain the problem discussed in this thread:
I've met people with an astoundingly low level of mastery of their native language. Furthermore, and this really baffles me, I have met some of them in translation related classes at the university! This leads to the possibility that the people referred to in this thread simply do not know that they don't speak a language at native level because of their limited insig... See more Dear colleagues,
I'd like to add two thoughts that might help to explain the problem discussed in this thread:
I've met people with an astoundingly low level of mastery of their native language. Furthermore, and this really baffles me, I have met some of them in translation related classes at the university! This leads to the possibility that the people referred to in this thread simply do not know that they don't speak a language at native level because of their limited insight into how that language is to be used, even if it really is their native language!, and lack of self-criticism.
Furthermore, someone who for example was raised in Germany by English-speaking parents and spent the first years of his life in Germany might believe that he speaks native German, even if he went to a different country later and thus his German deteriorated. Nevertheless, he might consider himself speaking native German.
To summarize:
1. The fact that a language is your native language does not necessarily imply that you are really proficient in this particular language.
2. Some people might suffer from pure unconscious misestimation of their language skills (as opposed to intentional cheating).
Of course, this doesn't help to solve the problem in any way, but I felt like saying it...
Regards,
Erik (being a native German, I hope the English speaking colleagues won't start screaming when they read this...)
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 17:54]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 17:55]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 18:16]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 20:19]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-24 17:09] ▲ Collapse
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| Well said, Erik | Sep 23, 2006 |
efreitag wrote:
Dear colleagues,
I'd like to add two thoughts that might help to explain the problem discussed in this thread:
I've met people with astoundingly low level of mastery of their native language. Furthermore, and this really baffles me, I have met some of them in translation related classes at the university! This leads to the possibility that the people referred to in this thread simply do not know that they don't speak a language at native level because of their limited insight into how that language is to be used, even if it really is their native language!, and lack of self-criticism.
Furthermore, someone who for example was raised in Germany by English-speaking parents and spent the first years of his life in Germany might believe that he speaks native German, even if he went to a different country later and thus his German deteriorated. Nevertheless, he might consider himself speaking native German.
To summarize:
1. The fact that a language is your native language does not necessarily imply that you are really proficient in this particular language.
2. Some people might suffer from pure unconscious misestimation of their language skills (as opposed to intentional cheating).
Of course, this doesn't help to solve the problem in any way, but I felt like saying it...
Regards,
Erik (being a native German, I hope the English speaking colleagues won't start screaming when they read this...)
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 17:54]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 17:55]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 18:16]
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 19:51]
Hi Erik,
Believe it or not, I (one of your English-speaking colleagues) am not going to scream at you. I actually agree with you. The problem is also that a lot of the time it isn't even enough to have a native level of English - how many native English-speakers can't even speak their own language properly or don't know a thing about grammar? As a translator, you need to speak the language like an "educated" native speaker (I'm not suggesting you have to go to university - in fact, I'm just making use of a standard phrase), but you basically need to know your grammar and when it comes to certain fields, e.g. I do a lot of advertising copy, your texts need to be practically flawless because they must be worthy of publication. Actually, I am also a journalist, so I know only too well how hard it is to get stuff published - those editors can be INCREDIBLY picky, there are style guidelines to adhere to and your stuff needs to sound really, really good.
There is also another problem which compounds the issue, and in fact just about half an hour ago, I was talking to my best friend about this. He is an American who works as a proofreader and teacher. His husband is German and as an exception has taken on a translation into English (albeit on musicology, a field that he knows a lot about). My friend will proofread it for quality control purposes, but I can only say that his German husband speaks and (according to my friend whose opinion I can rely on) writes excellent English, and in fact there is mostly nothing much to change/correct in his texts. However, I pointed out to my friend that it would probably not be a good idea for his husband to take on something like an advertising translation. He is very good at academic language, but due to the fact that he has never lived in an English-speaking country and, from my own experience in talking to him, it seems that his colloquial and idiomatic English is not quite as good - Let me tell you, it is really hard for a native to write good advertising copy or think up a catchy headline, but for someone who is not at least bilingual, I think it would have to be a real tour de force. So, essentially, some non-natives speak and write excellent English, but because there are cultural aspects and idioms they will be unfamiliar with unless they have grown up or spent extensive time in that country, certain texts are in my opinion a no-go area.
If you read my post above, you will see that I have lived in Germany for six years - maybe not that long, but people mistake me for a native when I speak and the same goes for my writing, but hey, I have not grown up here - I still come across stuff I don't know that most natives would do, and basically I know my limits. On the other hand, part of me almost understands why many non-natives are tempted to translate into English. There is such a huge demand for it, and from what I know, native German translators living here end up taking on such assignments just to supplement their work into German - I have heard that some people have problems getting enough work into German. It could be because there is so much competition (makes sense right - Germany has a lot of Germans!), so in such cases perhaps it makes sense to cast your net further afield - i.e. to apply to English agencies, which I know is what many German translators do. I recently applied to one in England (on recommendation of a German colleague), passed the test with flying colours, but I almost doubt that I will ever get any work because only afterwards did I find out that something like a mere 8% of their work is actually into English, while jobs into German are some of their most common.
Well, that's my two cents. I'm off to watch MTV ...;)
Have a nice night!
Sarah
[Bearbeitet am 2006-09-23 20:27]
| | | | Pavle Perencevic
Canada
Local time: 07:47
Member (2002)
Serbian to English
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| English 2.0. – a somewhat skewered perspective on the whole native speaker issue | Sep 23, 2006 |
Ok, you "native" English speakers out there, it's time you faced up to reality: the days of your unwarranted iron grip on the English language are numbered. Your huddled non-native masses will no longer suffer in silence, cooped up in the cages that are their umlaut-ridden, inflection-heavy squeaky little languages. With increasing frequency and confidence, they are speaking out proudly in their newly acquired mother tongue.
To be honest, you brought this calamity on yourselves. Wh... See more Ok, you "native" English speakers out there, it's time you faced up to reality: the days of your unwarranted iron grip on the English language are numbered. Your huddled non-native masses will no longer suffer in silence, cooped up in the cages that are their umlaut-ridden, inflection-heavy squeaky little languages. With increasing frequency and confidence, they are speaking out proudly in their newly acquired mother tongue.
To be honest, you brought this calamity on yourselves. While you blissfully chose to – at best – watch reality shows and talk shows ad nauseaum or – at worst – have your own reality shows and talk shows, instead of mastering the intricacies of such languages as Dzgonkha and Mordvinian, the world's linguistically disenfranchised wasted no time but diligently studied English from glossy books featuring pictures of Big Ben and the Golden Gate Bridge, aided and abetted by unwitting teachers-of-English-as-a-second-language. Well, this complacency has now come back to haunt you in the shape of a new, improved, truly international, no-frills, no-strings-attached, anything-goes, you-too-can-do-it version of what is still being referred to as English. Think of the KudoZ section as a bridgehead in the coming unstoppable global onslaught of the nouveau Anglophones. Better still, think of the English as it is still known as a beta version and of KudoZ answerers as beta testers. Well, we've tested it long enough, haven't we, and the thing is obviously in need of some serious debugging.
You can hardly blame the neo-natives for pushing their internationalist agenda. Is it their fault that you can't even agree on which of the many variants of English is the one true "native" language? Is it centER or centRE? Is it tomEIGHTo toMAHto? Is it fall or autumn? Come on, make up your minds. Well? That's what I thought. Touché. End of argument.
And there's also the question of numerical superiority. How many of you are there – 300 million? 400 million tops? And there are at least four billion of them and counting. So, for every so-called native speaker who in the KudoZ section chooses to insist, in that highly irritating I-know-better-than-you-but-I'm-too-nice-to-be-too-blunt-about-it fashion, upon the "nuances" of some English word or phrase or to make patronizing comments about things "not sounding quite right in English" (yeah, whatever), often without any formal knowledge of English grammar and guided by nothing but this mystical entity called the "gut feeling", there are at least ten so-called non-natives, who have your gerunds and your Saxon genitives at their fingertips, to authoritatively squash any such supercilious notions. Just think about it. Ten to one. The odds are clearly against you. All resistance is futile. Cease and desist.
Speaking of nuances and gut feelings – in the new democratic, post-native, version-2.0. open-source English language of tomorrow (what is now known as English may come to be known as Ur-English or Proto-English one day), nuances will become obsolete. In fact, the words "nuance" and "obsolete" will become obsolete. And there won't be any such thing as the gut feeling. English will become so all-embracing that even a sentence like "I was exquisitely pleasured via the fact that my collocutor's diploma on higher education has in 1970 been procured from the institution most honored" (the future spelling will be simplified, of course) will be universally regarded as grammatical and idiomatic.
Call it an invasion of the language snatchers if you like, but it's a lost battle that you're fighting. You may as well lay down your English usage guides right now. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 07:47
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Claiming to be a native speaker when you're not | Sep 23, 2006 |
Francis Lee wrote:
I have often made clear my opposition to people translating into a language other than their mother tongue, i.e. in combinations where there is an adequate supply of native professionals. But I’ve recently come across an even more shocking phenomenon: colleagues mysteriously adding English to their native languages!
Just recently someone answered a question who I distinctly recalled from the past because a) they were a native of neither German nor English (my language pair) b) their answers were always poor and generally a bit bizarre (frankly, I think a "substance problem" was involved, but that's beside the point).
NOW I see they are suddenly a native-speaker of English! And judging by their picture, their newly found skills cannot exactly be due to recent childhood immersion in a new language. A glance at their sample translations immediately shows the poor, non-native quality of their English. Beyond dispute or doubt.
And the phenomenon is by no means limited to English. A reliable source has told me that a 100% Dutch “colleague” has recreated herself as a French native.
- How is it possible for people to "acquire" a new native language? Have they been newly baptised in linguistically regenerative waters? OK, the answer is: they can't. What I mean is: how is it possible for them to be listed as a native on Proz.com? Which brings me on to …
- Are they really "verified"? If so, how? Because on a related point, I also reckon that over 95% of so-called dual natives on the Ger/Eng site are Germans who either spent a couple of semesters at a US high school or attended an international school in Germany. I don't know how well they SPEAK the lingo, but the English they WRITE in connection with Kudoz questions is far from native standard. This is a tricky and potentially tearful point, because these people perhaps genuinely believe they are native speakers. But perhaps a revised (i.e. effective) Kudoz verification process could break the news to them.
This is something I’d really like to see cleaned up on the site. I’ll keep it at that for the moment.
Here Francis Lee has raised the issue of members/users making inaccurate claims of being native speakers of a non-native language. Translating into a non-native language is a separate issue.
[Edited at 2006-09-24 21:33]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 16:47
German to English
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| Abolish "native" | Sep 24, 2006 |
Is it not perhaps time to abolish the "native" attribute?
It is misleading and unconstructive. It implies that any native speaker has the required target-language writing ability, and any non-native does not. This is patently not the case.
Translators are professional writers, and the consensus in the profession, at least in the so-called "developed" countries, is that a certain standard of writing ability can be expected of them. It should not be surprising that many ... See more Is it not perhaps time to abolish the "native" attribute?
It is misleading and unconstructive. It implies that any native speaker has the required target-language writing ability, and any non-native does not. This is patently not the case.
Translators are professional writers, and the consensus in the profession, at least in the so-called "developed" countries, is that a certain standard of writing ability can be expected of them. It should not be surprising that many natives fail to reach this standard. Equally, some (the actual proportion is moot) non-natives reach a standard which may be equivalent to, or even better than, that of most natives.
The level of writing skill required arguably differs according to the type of text to be translated, as has already been pointed out. Some non-native translators routinely have their texts revised by a native speaker, so the service they are offering is arguably that of a "native", and they may declare more than one native language in good faith in consideration of this fact. These distinctions are not adequately addressed by the crude native/non-native distinction. So why not abolish it?
I am not suggesting that the standard for target-language writing ability be lowered. I am suggesting that it be recognized for what it is, and not made dependent upon the vague attribute of "native".
I have no formal qualification in my main specialist subject. (I am a member of an industry association and I regularly attend training events, but my knowledge has never been formally tested.) I routinely translate from a language in which I hold only a British A level, a university entrance-level qualification equivalent to approximately seven years' school tuition; I am self-taught in this language and have received at most 25 hours' (translation-related) tuition in it. No one has ever suggested to me that on the basis of these formal qualifications or lack of them, I am not qualified to translate from this particular language or in my main specialist field. My qualification is judged, if at all, on the results. Why can the same approach not be taken with the target language(s) offered by a translator?
My intention is not to declare open season on the translation market for colleagues translating into their foreign language(s). My point is simply that competence should be judged by results, and I am all in favour of doing just that. Non-native translators into English who perceive in the native/non-native distinction an attempt by English natives to protect "their" monopoly are missing an important point: many English speakers are reluctant to point out colleagues' incompetence to their faces, and the theoretical, generic discussion of native-speaker ability is a consequence of this. Two or three years ago, we had frequent and lengthy discussions here with one particular translator who was determined to translate into her foreign languages. I once counted 42 clear grammatical and stylistic errors in a single post from this contributor, but no one, myself included, was prepared to point this out. Then, as now, the issue was expressed in terms of theory and principles. Like Sarah, I don't wish to "attack" anyone personally, but if progress is going to be made on this issue, we have to accept that some people are going to be offended.
Pavle rightly says that the "natives" need to face certain realities, one being that translations into English are more often than not intended for an international audience and therefore subject to different criteria. At the same time, many non-natives also have some serious facts to face. Significantly, many such translators seriously overestimate their own writing ability in their foreign language(s). This is partly because this ability is frequently judged by their comprehension skills and oral fluency, which are unsuitable yardsticks, and because these translators have no direct contact with their readership, who may well find the results perplexing, hilarious, or both.
Finally, globalization has suddenly placed many of us in competition with colleagues in parts of the world whose living costs are supposedly a fraction of ours and whose prices we cannot hope to match. The other side of the coin is that some of us have staked our reputations (justified or not) on what we consider to be appropriate standards. The last thing we are going to do, and can afford to do, is to lower these standards to accommodate the new competition. The free market cuts both ways, I'm afraid.
Marc ▲ Collapse
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| Excellent satire! | Sep 24, 2006 |
Pavle Perencevic wrote:
Call it an invasion of the language snatchers if you like, but it's a lost battle that you're fighting. You may as well lay down your English usage guides right now.
Bob Dylan wrote:
Then they'll raise their hands,
Sayin' "We'll meet all your demands,"
But we'll shout from the bow "Your days are numbered!"
And like Pharaoh's tribe,
They'll be drowned in the tide,
And like Goliath, they'll be conquered.
| | | | Claire Titchmarsh (X)
Local time: 16:47
Italian to English
+ ...
| No surrender | Sep 24, 2006 |
[quote]Pavle Perencevic wrote:
To Pavel:
I agree, the whole "native English" thing becomes a little meaningless when faced with an example of your prose that is of a far higher standard than many "native Brits" could produce. But you are the exception and not the norm. Whether your post was tongue-in-cheek or not, there were a couple of things that I couldn't ignore:
Ok, you "native" English speakers out there, it's time you faced up to reality: the days of your unwarranted iron grip on the English language are numbered. Your huddled non-native masses will no longer suffer in silence, cooped up in the cages that are their umlaut-ridden, inflection-heavy squeaky little languages. With increasing frequency and confidence, they are speaking out proudly in their newly acquired mother tongue.
- no, it is not their mother tongue, that's the whole point. As for "unwarranted grip", what are you talking about?
You can hardly blame the neo-natives for pushing their internationalist agenda. Is it their fault that you can't even agree on which of the many variants of English is the one true "native" language? Is it centER or centRE? Is it tomEIGHTo toMAHto? Is it fall or autumn? Come on, make up your minds. Well? That's what I thought. Touché. End of argument.
- Actually, it's just the beginning of the argument. Every (forgive me for using the word "native")-English speaker has most definitely made up their minds about whether to use US, UK, Australian English or whatever. We write and speak in one or the other, not both. Most of my clients have no problems about deciding which variant they want, either. They are paying us for our CULTURAL insight, not just whether we say fall or autumn.
"So, for every so-called native speaker who in the KudoZ section chooses to insist, in that highly irritating I-know-better-than-you-but-I'm-too-nice-to-be-too-blunt-about-it fashion, upon the "nuances" of some English word or phrase or to make patronizing comments about things "not sounding quite right in English" (yeah, whatever), often without any formal knowledge of English grammar and guided by nothing but this mystical entity called the "gut feeling","
- "Gut instinct" may be "mystical" in the sense that you can't explain it, but in this profession it is key. It is what makes the difference between a good translation and a bad one, the product of centuries of cultural and linguistic development. It is exactly the reason why I am a (successful) translator, and why there are lots of other people (though not enough, clearly) like me around the world who are paid to make things not only comprehensible but enjoyable (or at least painless) for the target readership.
It's a sad fact that thousands of people who've learned English at school or done a two-week course in Oxford think they can speak English therefore they can also write in English, and they flood the Internet with their sad little websites full of the linguistic howlers we see every single day of the week. They waste people's (our) time by carping at "native-speaker" translations because they haven't come across that particular construction before, therefore it must be wrong, and the translator a fool.
I think it must be because English is "the global language" so everyone feels as if they have a claim on it. Who said it was the global language? Have Tony Blair and George Bush secretly been issuing diktats to the rest of the world behind our backs??
Your dismissive "yeah, whatever" about people who say things don't sound quite right shows that you just haven't grasped a fundamental aspect of translation - it is instinctive. Good writing comes from within. It comes from years of subconsciously absorbing language like a sponge, watching, listening, reading, observing. You can't learn it from books alone.
To avoid "fake" native-speakers, it should be compulsory to include full details on your profile of where you were brought up and educated, what language you spoke at home, and what language you speak every day. Clients can then make an informed decision.
There is no doubt that if people are entering English as their native language when it is not, proZ.com will lose credibility extremely quickly (actually it already has). It is something that needs to be sorted out immediately.
| | | | gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 11:47
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
| A complete language map | Sep 24, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote:
Is it not perhaps time to abolish the "native" attribute?
Hi Marc and all,
I always read your postings with attention but the proposal to simply abolish the declaration of our native language seems to me a bit excessive. In my opinion, a native language declaration gives an useful information but, I agree, it may be considered in many ways too simplistic, and it fails to describe all those lucky multilingual individuals, whose language skills cannot be easily mapped.
Time ago, unhappy with the simple notion of 1 or 2 native languages, I was toying with the alternative idea of a more complete "language map", to replace the simple notion of "native language". Considering that the Native language project has never been fully implemented, in particular the project to have the multi-language claims verified, and that languages skills are often difficult to define, complex, and continuously evolving... what do you think about providing a space for the members to define a more complete map of their language skills?
Such map should be defined and designed carefully, but it could include a larger number of attributes and various degrees of knowledge, not only a native level declaration. For example, a possible range of choices could include:
native language: guage list... ]
(currently the only information available)
near native level: [... language list... ]
(indicating a level often indistinguishable from native, but NOT native)
fluent level: [... language list... ]
(indicating excellent, but nowhere near native level)
high proficiency level: [... language list... ]
(for those willing to indicate it)
intermediate level: [... language list... ]
(for those willing to indicate it)
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Not all of them would be compulsory, and each level should be available for one or more languages,, to match the variety of language skills, the number of languages, etc.
It should be designed as a very flexible system, and not limiting in any way, to accomodate all possible personal situations.
In addition to the skills map described above, we could have a complementary map related to our translation/interpretation activity, listing one or more languages as:
working source languages: guage list... ]
working target languages: [... language list... ]
language of habitual use: [language] [language] [...]
(for those willing to indicate it)
[/quote]
In other words, the site could provide all the options sufficient to define our language skills in several aspect of language proficiency, and we could have the map displayed to the potential customers, as to provide them with a complete picture of our cultural and professional setup.
I would also leave to each members the ultimate responsibility of defining the claims of expertise, the associated level of skills, and leave to the customers to examine what is declared.
The site could simply provide a structured way, to present the map, in a graphically pleasant way, possibly using different colors, positions, etc...
If you think that 1, or 2, native languages are too restrictive for many applications, that it may be not 100% welcome by many members, and not even really meaningful for some "real work" situations. we could provide a more comprehensive tool, and the necessary space for all kinds of language skills.
Moreover, such novel scheme could include and integrate the current listing of "working pairs" and "native language", as they are now, but not be restricted to them only.
I have no time to expand on it right now, and probably I'm not even qualified to do it, just throwing in the idea to provide the largest and most complete picture, instead of framing everybody in a too restrictive concept.
The current problem of imprecise, if not 'false' claims for a double native language, would be solved simply self-rating one of them as native and the second as 'near native', and then declaring to work into both of them.
The clients will have to judge the honesty of such claims using the tools available to them (request credentials, sample translation, personal recommendation by trusted professionals, etc.).
It is not ProZ's job to test each and every claim, and it has revealed to been difficult (and not implemented) in the past.
bye
Gianfranco
[Edited at 2006-09-24 15:27]
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