Suggestion: Answerer should not be able to hide an answer after the question is closed
Thread poster: Bjørnar Magnussen

Bjørnar Magnussen  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
English to Norwegian
+ ...
Oct 18, 2006

The pros and cons of introducing a KudoZ acceptance rate (sometimes called "reliability rate") has been discussed at lenght before, e.g. here: http://www.proz.com/post/387310#387310

There seems to be some consensus that within the same language pair and field, a translator with an acceptance rate of e.g. 50% is probably more reliable than one with a rate of 10%.

While information about acceptance rate is not available to outsourcers, the profile page contains information about number of question answered, which makes it easy to calculate the approximate acceptance rate.

However, as it is now this rate can easily be manipulated. If you hide your answer, the number of questions answered decrease by one. Thus, if you hide your answer for all closed questions where your answer were not chosen, you can easily gain an acceptance rate of 100%. This possibility undermines the whole purpose of the acceptance rate.

My suggestion goes as follows:

After a question is closed, answerers should not any longer be allowed to hide their answers. The exception might be for questions who are closed because of "Answer found elsewhere", "Errant question" or "Other."

NOTE: I would like this topic to be about the hide function only. If you have comments about the usefulness of the acceptance rate as such, please post them in the topic mentioned above.

[Edited at 2006-10-18 21:49]


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Erich Ekoputra  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 10:03
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Should we bother about it? Oct 19, 2006

I understand the point of possible manipulation to get 100% reliability.

But, being an active ProZ answerer with a *low* reliability rate (may be only around 30%), I am wondering why should anyone bother to hide his/her answers.

Except in cases when my answers are really off track, I prefer them being there so that when people get time to check alternatives, they can still find mine and may prefer them to the ones selected by the askers.

Let KudoZ not just be a game of competition of competence, but a game of helping and sharing and inspiring. When we think of it that way, we will pursue participation more than acceptance and be proud of the number of questions we can answer.

Best regards,

Erich//


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Bjørnar Magnussen  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
English to Norwegian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good point, Erich Oct 19, 2006

Erich wrote: "Except in cases when my answers are really off track, I prefer them being there so that when people get time to check alternatives, they can still find mine and may prefer them to the ones selected by the askers."

I totally agree, Erich, and would like to add this as another reason why answerers should not be able to hide an answer after the question is closed"

Eric wrote: "Let KudoZ not just be a game of competition of competence, but a game of helping and sharing and inspiring."

Let's accept this as a fact: Some KudoZ-answerers use number of points to promote themselves. Let me refer to an article by Henry (http://www.proz.com/doc/447):

"The most powerful ways to boost traffic to your profile are (1) to go platinum and (2) to earn KudoZ points. These two activities have a big impact because... well, because ProZ.com is built to work that way!"

Also, some KudoZ-answerers pay attention to the acceptance rate. If you don't take my words for it, see http://www.proz.com/post/387310#387310.

The information is available on our profiles, and it should not be possible to manipulate it.


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Robert Tucker
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:03
German to English
+ ...
Ultimate right of answerer to withdraw his or her answer. Oct 19, 2006

Letting an answer stand that one is (as good as) sure is correct where an incorrect answer is selected might be construed as acceptance of the incorrect answer. In such a case I think one should have the ultimate right to remove one's correct answer.

I do read about contacting a moderator and so on, but neither the answerer nor the moderator my have a good deal of time, the arguments may be complex and/or technical, the asker may be out of his or her depth with the question or the accepted answer may simply be something understandable but not used as such in the given language.

Is not the text of answer still in some way the property of the answerer and should he or she not have the right to delete if he or she so desires? [I don't quite remember the copyright position on ProZ, so I may need some legal correction here.]


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Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:03
Member (2002)
English to German
Stand by your answer if you're right, correct yourself if you're wrong Oct 19, 2006

Robert Tucker wrote:
Letting an answer stand that one is (as good as) sure is correct where an incorrect answer is selected might be construed as acceptance of the incorrect answer. In such a case I think one should have the ultimate right to remove one's correct answer.


I'm afraid I cannot follow this line of argument at all. When an incorrect answer is selected, it is all the more important for a correct answer to remain visible, since then anyone looking up the question later has the chance to make up their own mind.

In no way does letting your answer stand imply that you agree with another answer rather than yours. Why should it? In fact, if you wish to agree with another answer and to revoke your own, you can (and should) add a note to that effect to your own answer. Indeed, I prefer this kind of correction to hiding one's own incorrect answer, since it can help others avoid the same (or similar) traps one has fallen into.

Happy KudoZing,
Endre


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Robert Tucker
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:03
German to English
+ ...
Standing by one's answer Oct 19, 2006

I'm afraid that I don't see that ProZ particularly facilitates one's standing by one's answer if one feels one is right. Ultimate courtesy to the asker and the building of an accurate term bank do not seem to go quite hand-in-hand to me.

Experienced ProZ users may well know to check out all answers to a given question, but someone who is just trying to find the meaning of something and finds an answer on ProZ via a search engine, for example, is very likely to take the accepted answer, even more so if there are other similar answers to the accepted answer.

If an asker finds that an answer to his or her question has disappeared he or she is perfectly at liberty to think that the answerer was too ashamed to leave it or just wanted to improve the appearance of his or her ProZ profile – on the other hand the asker might be inclined to start thinking a little wider.

Endre Both wrote:
In fact, if you wish to agree with another answer and to revoke your own, you can (and should) add a note to that effect to your own answer.

If one decides an answer one has made is incorrect and there is no useful information in it relevant to the question asked, then there is no clearer way of revoking it than to delete (hide) it (and accrediting the correct answer). This rarely happens after the question is closed in my experience though.

[Edited at 2006-10-19 12:25]


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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
German to Spanish
+ ...
Don't agree Oct 19, 2006

If the answerer is sure the answer is wrong, it should be able to hide his/her answer:

a) Even if questions are closed, I search trough them. As translator, I don't want to loose my time reading wrong answers, neither to loose the time of my colleagues bothering them with already answered questions...


b) Answers, without context, may be quite correct in a context and completely wrong in another. Try to translate the word 'stock' without context into spanish: inventario, mercancías, stock, existencias. etc....

All the answers are correct, but the translation itself depends on the economical, accounting, merchandising context.


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Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 00:03
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I support this suggestion Oct 19, 2006

Bjørnar Magnussen wrote:

My suggestion goes as follows:

After a question is closed, answerers should not any longer be allowed to hide their answers. The exception might be for questions who are closed because of "Answer found elsewhere", "Errant question" or "Other."



I support this suggestion. However, no exceptions admitted.
Once the question is closed, the answers belong to the community. Even if an answer was not selected, it might be usefulf for future references and users. Same reason applies to refuse suggested exceptions.

I gave these reasons to a member who was - as a rule - hidding all his not selected answers in the language pair I work. I think he understood. At least, he told me so and said he was going to stop doing it.


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
Fully agree Oct 19, 2006

Walter Landesman wrote:


I support this suggestion. However, no exceptions admitted.
Once the question is closed, the answers belong to the community. Even if an answer was not selected, it might be usefulf for future references and users. Same reason applies to refuse suggested exceptions.

I gave these reasons to a member who was - as a rule - hidding all his not selected answers in the language pair I work. I think he understood. At least, he told me so and said he was going to stop doing it.


By no means it should be possible to hide an answer after the points have been assigned. I don't see any reason, whether our answer was choosen or not.

But if I'm not wrong, this suggestion has already been made before. I have the feeling we rack our brain and there is not much feedback from the staff


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Bjørnar Magnussen  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
English to Norwegian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Maybe all hidden answers should count towards the total? Oct 19, 2006

[quote]Christel Zipfel wrote:

But if I'm not wrong, this suggestion has already been made before. I have the feeling we rack our brain and there is not much feedback from the staff

Yes, you are right, I have gone through old topics and found the following suggestion made by Nikki Graham on pg. 13 of this topic:

http://www.proz.com/post/393448#393448

"2. I think people should be allowed to hide their answers if they want to (we can all make embarrassing mistakes), but the negative effect on the reliability ratio should still remain."

This would also make it impossible to manipulate the acceptance ratio.



[Edited at 2006-10-19 22:16]


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DGK T-I  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:03
Member (2003)
Georgian to English
+ ...
Surprised that any total displayed does't include hidden answers Oct 20, 2006

It doesn't make sense that they aren't included (if they aren't, that is)
I wonder if this is a just a bug.

Bjørnar Magnussen wrote:

Maybe all hidden answers should count towards the total?







[Edited at 2006-10-20 00:24]

[Edited at 2006-10-21 11:41]


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gad
United States
Local time: 23:03
Member
French to English
I see your point but Oct 20, 2006

I have to disagree with the idea that an answerer should not EVER be able to hide an answer after the question is closed. I mean I don't think I've ever done this, but I don't think it would be right to take away this capability. JMO.

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Bjørnar Magnussen  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
English to Norwegian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A bug? Oct 21, 2006

It doesn't make sense that they aren't included (if they aren't, that is)


I started this topic because I noticed that my total was going down after hiding an answer.

I agree that it doesn't make sense in most cases. Maybe some would argue that you should be able to hide your answers so that they don't count towards the total in the following cases:

1. Someone else posted exactly the same answer short time before you.

2. More context has been provided after you posted your answer.

I wonder if this is a just a bug.


Do you think so? Should I submit a support ticket?

Thanks for your input,

Bjornar

[Edited at 2006-10-21 14:05]


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:03
English to Arabic
+ ...
Incorrect answers continue to appear in the "Proz term search" Oct 22, 2006

Endre Both wrote:

In fact, if you wish to agree with another answer and to revoke your own, you can (and should) add a note to that effect to your own answer.


Although I agree with you, and I believe it's more courteous and less sneaky to keep your answer and add a note saying that you agree with another answer, you have to remember that all answers - correct and incorrect - continue to appear in the Proz.com Term search.

Some answers may be incorrect in a specific context, but correct in other contexts. These shouldn't be hidden, as they may help translators in other situations.

But when the answer is COMPLETELY off the mark, e.g someone asks what is "East" and the answer is "West", then it should be possible (I'm inclined to say - compulsory) to hide this answer.
The priority in Kudoz should be to help translators do their job properly, and not have incorrect entries in the glossary. The "reliability factor" should only be a second priority.


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