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Rule 2.11- What does it say, really?
Thread poster: peiling

peiling  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:23
Partial member (2006)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Mar 3, 2007

Hi,

I've been alerted by a KudoZ moderator to KudoZ Rule 2.11 (http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.11#2.11): Sufficient time should be allowed for responses to be made. It is recommended that askers allow at least twenty-four (24) hours to pass before closing a question.

Apparently I broke the rule for closing my questions before the 24 hours are up. My understanding is that I should be able to close the question ahead of time as long as 'sufficient time was given' for getting the response that I'm looking for, which is precisely why I'd close the question in the first place, i.e., I have found the answer I was looking for. And '24 hours' is just the recommended duration to keep the question open.

However, I was told explicitly that the '24 hours' IS a rule and the ambiguous wording is at fault.

Am I the only one who can't see the rule clearly for what it is? Any input welcome.

Thanks.


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Cristina Heraud-van Tol  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 12:23
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Hi Mar 3, 2007

I also take that rule as it is written there: "It is RECOMMENDED...". I too, sometimes had closed questions before those 24 hours, either because the translation is due in less than that time or because somebody gave the right word I am looking for (with several agrees), so why get more answers and let them fill up my e-mail account?

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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 11:23
German to English
It's about the glossaries and the community of translators Mar 3, 2007

Pei Ling Haußecker wrote:
My understanding is that I should be able to close the question ahead of time as long as 'sufficient time was given' for getting the response that I'm looking for, which is precisely why I'd close the question in the first place, i.e., I have found the answer I was looking for. And '24 hours' is just the recommended duration to keep the question open.



Dear Pei Ling and Cristina

I think both of you are missing a very important point about KudoZ. It is not just for you. It is for the community of professional translators too. You receive the help of translators and the community receives a glossary entry for future use.

You can use the information you receive any time you wish. No one is stopping you from using the first proposal immediately in your translation. But you don't have to close the question and thus discourage people who see the question 8 hours later from adding their contributions.

Who cares when your translation is due? And it's not just the word YOU are looking for at the moment that counts but terms that can be useful to others at a later time.

So - I urge you to rethink your approach. Right now it's recommended that you leave the question open, but there's a very good reason for that recommendation.

[Edited at 2007-03-03 04:10]


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:23
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
sufficient time Mar 3, 2007

Pei Ling Haußecker wrote:
Apparently I broke the rule for closing my questions before the 24 hours are up. My understanding is that I should be able to close the question ahead of time as long as 'sufficient time was given' for getting the response that I'm looking for, which is precisely why I'd close the question in the first place, i.e., I have found the answer I was looking for. And '24 hours' is just the recommended duration to keep the question open.



Hi Pei Ling,

May I ask how long you waited before closing your questions? 24 hours is currently not a strict limit, and we are usually flexible, but when askers close questions within minutes we may have to remind them of this rule. Are we talking about minutes/a couple of hours here?

The 24-hour limit was set because it's only fair to give everybody (e.g. prozians who live in a different time zone or who didn't get to your question very quickly) the chance to answer.
Maybe you've already received the answer you're looking for, but you never know, someone may come up with an even better answer a few hours (or even days) later. If you haven't submitted your translation, great; if you have, you can still award KudoZ points to the best answer even if it's not the one you used in your translation. Remember, when you're choosing an answer you're not simply thanking the answerer; you're also indirectly showing others who may browse for this term in the glossary that this particular answer is the best rendition.

One of the main reasons we care so much about KudoZ and we've created rules and added editors is because of the KudoZ Open Glossary. Once you post your question the term you ask becomes part of the glossary, so it's no longer "yours". Because it now belongs to the KOG it should include all possible good renditions.

If you found the answer you are looking for, by all means use it. You don't have to close the question, though. Let other people add their suggestions. I know that we can add answers even after a question has been closed but think about it: answerers are much more inclined to add a suggestion when a question is still open because it's nice to receive recognition for your help (in the form of kudoz points, a simple "thank you" or peer agrees).
And let's not forget that by leaving the question open people are also more inclined to add peer comments; they get Browniz, and those who will browse the KOG in the future will be able to see clearly which answer was favored by peers, which will make their choice easier as well.

Finally, let me answer your question as clearly as I can (i.e. whether this is a rule or a recommendation). It is a recommendation. Personally I don't think that making a distinction is that important in this case; what's important is that people take it to heart because -as Kim said- there is a very good reason for it.
You don't HAVE to wait 24 hours (if this were a strict rule and you violated it repeatedly, you'd probably receive a warning or block instead of a friendly reminder by a moderator). It is a recommendation, and by waiting longer than a few minutes or a couple of hours you show that you care about the quality of KudoZ, the glossary, and the answerers, and not only about your own translation.

Cristina, you wrote
why get more answers and let them fill up my e-mail account?

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that by posting a question dozens of prozians (and in some cases -such as English-Spanish, which is one of your pairs- hundreds) receive an e-mail notification. If you've closed a question within a few hours, those living in a different time zone will open the link thinking they can offer their help, but instead will find the question closed (i.e. you asked for their help but now you're telling them that you don't want it any more, they're too late). Some people may not like that.

Maria


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María Teresa Taylor Oliver  Identity Verified
Panama
Local time: 12:23
English to Spanish
+ ...
What about the "first-validated answer" type of question? Mar 3, 2007

Kim Metzger wrote:

I think both of you are missing a very important point about KudoZ. It is not just for you. It is for the community of professional translators too. You receive the help of translators and the community receives a glossary entry for future use.

You can use the information you receive any time you wish. No one is stopping you from using the first proposal immediately in your translation. But you don't have to close the question and thus discourage people who see the question 8 hours later from adding their contributions.

Who cares when your translation is due? And it's not just the word YOU are looking for at the moment that counts but terms that can be useful to others at a later time.



I agree. A question not only helps the person who asks it, but also others who may have the same question later on. I always leave my questions open for a few days so I can receive input from other colleagues that may not have seen my question in the first few hours or even in the first day, even if my translation is over and done by then, because I believe it helps enrich the glossaries. And I also end up learning something new. There have been times when I've used one of the first answers because I had to deliver my translation, and then, while reviewing the other answers to close the question, have found them to be better than the first. Not that the chosen one didn't help me, but I would've missed that later (and very valuable) input if I'd closed my question too early, see?


Then again, what about the "first-validated answer" type of question? I've been wondering about that. If it works like I think it does, that the question is closed right after one of the answers is validated by one "agree", then it violates the 24-hour rule, and I find that rather inconsistent.


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peiling  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:23
Partial member (2006)
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Maria Mar 3, 2007

for taking the time to address this. Your points are made loud and clear. I recently closed 2 questions before the 24h was up because the answers confirmed my own translations. I do not question the basis for the (strong, as I gathered) recommendation but rather the notion of insisting a 'recommendation' as a 'rule'. Thank you.

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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 12:23
English to French
+ ...
KudoZ profits the entire community Mar 3, 2007

I'll be brief as Maria has already addressed this in detail.

First and foremost, KudoZ is a means for translators to get help with difficult terms. But it is much more than that - a means for people to "collect" points which will help them to get advantagous placement in the directory, a means for translators to show that they are good at research and terminology, and finally, a means to build a huge dictionary of terms that can be consulted so that we don't have to search for hours for answers that are only seconds away. It's a community thing.

While it is a means to help you personally when you look at it from your own perspective, it is also a means to help the entire community. For the community aspect to function properly, we need to give users a chance to participate - hence the "24-hour rule".

I am in favor of this, although I haven't used KudoZ for a long time - in answering questions in the past, KudoZ has taught me to become better at research and I now rarely use it. I do, however, use the web term search, and often, I find the answer to my question in the KOG. This wouldn't be possible if a large number of users hadn't answered questions such as yours.

I am sure you can see the link between the participation rate and the usefulness of KudoZ to you personally.

Cheers!

[Edited at 2007-03-03 05:39]


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Vladimir Dubisskiy  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:23
English to Russian
+ ...
probably i am missing something Mar 3, 2007

Dear Kim,
Should I wait 24 hours and keep the question opened if, say, I have got the answer I was looking for and I have got it within two minutes from one answerer. So I awarded the points, put the answer in the glossary and closed the question. Is it correct? I believe it is.

I mean if I got the proper answer and do not think that any other contributions required then by closing my duly answered question timely I am saving the others' people time letting to concentrate if they wish on some unanswered questions.
If the answer was found / provided what's the point to keep the question opened for 24 hrs?

Kim Metzger wrote:
But you don't have to close the question and thus discourage people who see the question 8 hours later from adding their contributions.


[Edited at 2007-03-03 04:10]


[Edited at 2007-03-03 08:09]


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Andres & Leticia Enjuto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 14:23
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
By definition, if you ask a question it is because you are not sure about the answer Mar 3, 2007

Vladimir Dubisskiy wrote:

I mean if I got the proper answer and do not think that any other contributions required then by closing my duly answered question timely I am saving the others' people time letting to concentrate if they wish on some unanswered questions.
If the answer was found / provided what's the point to keep the question opened for 24 hrs?



Hi Vladimir,

My view of the issue is opposite to yours, I think.

I think that if we ask a question, then we should wait for as many answers / opinions / comments as possible from colleagues with more experience in the given field.

By definition, we ask because we are not sure about the proper translation, right? Then our criterion for choosing the correct answer is also limited. (This is, in my opinion, the core flaw of the KudoZ system.)

Time ago I posted a KudoZ question on a technical term I had researching for half an hour or so, with no clue about the solution.
A translator (whom I know is very good in the field I was working on) posted an excellent answer that I thought was the best one.

I was tempted to close the question and award the points right away, but I didn't do it, just in case.

A few hours later, another colleague posted the PERFECT answer (I mean, not only excellent). There was actually a typo in the original, and neither the first answerer nor I had detected it.

It is important to note that the first translater lives in my time zone, and the second one lives in a different one (he answered the next day, I think).

Then, why rush on something if everybody can benefit from us waiting a couple of days before closing the questions?

Take care, have an excellent weekend, and wish us a happy vacation as we're leaving on Monday!

Andrés


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:23
SITE FOUNDER
It is a recommendation Mar 3, 2007

This is an issue on which the moderators and community have not reached a consensus. What was agreed upon is that a 24-hour waiting period should be "recommended".

Therefore, as things stand, an asker may close a question before 24 hours are up, and doing so does not constitute a violation of a rule.


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JaneTranslates  Identity Verified
Puerto Rico
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
Spanish to English
+ ...
What just happened here? Mar 3, 2007

I received a notification of a new post in this forum. I clicked on the link and was sent to the forum, but the new post wasn't there. I tried accessing the forum through the Home page, but the post still wasn't there.

I checked the email to see if there was content that was against a rule, but as far as I could see, there should have been no problem.

What's up?


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 11:23
German to English
Somebody goofed Mar 3, 2007

Hi Jane,
Somebody posted something to this thread and then realized she had posted it to the wrong thread. She then deleted it.

Kim


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B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 18:23
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Another thought and one on the subject of glossary entries too Mar 3, 2007

Vladimir Dubisskiy wrote:

Dear Kim,
Should I wait 24 hours and keep the question opened if, say, I have got the answer I was looking for and I have got it within two minutes from one answerer. So I awarded the points, put the answer in the glossary and closed the question. Is it correct? I believe it is.

I mean if I got the proper answer and do not think that any other contributions required then by closing my duly answered question timely I am saving the others' people time letting to concentrate if they wish on some unanswered questions.
If the answer was found / provided what's the point to keep the question opened for 24 hrs?


I think there are two things wrong with this:

First, as has previously been said, Kudoz is a resource for all of us, not just for the asker. I have certainly seen cases where the asker has made a bad choice in selecting an answer, whether because they didn't wait for other answers that would have shed more light on their question, or because of limitations in their knowledge of either the source or target language or of the technical field.

Second, I do think that askers should usually allow the answerer to make the glossary entry. They gave you some free help and it does seem a bit off to use their effort to award yourself BrowniZ. Of course, if the selected answer was good, put you on the right track, but was not quite the best translation of the source term, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the asker to make the glossary entry, in which case an award of less than 4 KudoZ points might be appropriate.


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peiling  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:23
Partial member (2006)
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks everyone. Mar 3, 2007

Thanks for clarifying, Henry. That's my only question, really.
Henry wrote:
This is an issue on which the moderators and community have not reached a consensus. What was agreed upon is that a 24-hour waiting period should be "recommended".

Therefore, as things stand, an asker may close a question before 24 hours are up, and doing so does not constitute a violation of a rule.


I agree with you. As you said, there's no effort involved on the asker's part. Although it's common to see the asker making the glossary entry, the reason being, 'the answerer has earned KudoZ points'.
B D Finch wrote:
Second, I do think that askers should usually allow the answerer to make the glossary entry. They gave you some free help and it does seem a bit off to use their effort to award yourself BrowniZ. Of course, if the selected answer was good, put you on the right track, but was not quite the best translation of the source term, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the asker to make the glossary entry, in which case an award of less than 4 KudoZ points might be appropriate.


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