KudoZ asking without answering: How much is more than enough?
Thread poster: Kirill Semenov

Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 01:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Sep 23, 2007

A non-paying member had been asked more than 600 questions during their career starting from 2004 (no kudoz answer, of course). Is it a heap or not? It is more than enough or good enough to be a member? I just wonder...

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-09-24 11:15]


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
No limit, I fear Sep 23, 2007

In my main LP, we have one person (nickname, profile perfectly void) that has asked nearly 1.000 questions and given no answer, obviously.

We have another one who has posted several questions nearly every day and became a member when the restrictions were implemented. More than 3.600 questions actually and 18 answers.

I believe it should be considered an abuse, but there is no such rule here.

You can avoid to answer the questions of those persons, or even to see their questions. That's what I do.

I think there's not much else we can do, actually.

[Bearbeitet am 2007-09-23 18:23]


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Catherine Bolton  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:51
Member (2002)
Italian to English
+ ...
There is a limit ... Sep 23, 2007

If the person is a registered user, s/he can ask up to 20 a week. So if the person has been a member since 2004, and you figure s/he has been a registered user for, say 2.5 years, multiply that by 52 and then again by 20/week, and you'll see that everything is within bounds, so cannot be considered abuse based on the site regulations.
Even non-registered users have a limit of 1/day, ergo 7/week ... You get my gist.
Nobody is forced to answer. Every SC figures out those who are both givers and takers, and those who simply take advantage.
Just ignore them!
Catherine


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
I meant "limit of decency"... Sep 23, 2007

cbolton wrote:

There is a limit...


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OlafK
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:51
English to German
+ ...
What about the kudoz point chasers? Sep 24, 2007

When people always ask lots of questions and rarely answer any that's probably because they take on lots of jobs at cheap rates that other, more capable translators refuse. Then they come here and cry for help. I usually check the answer/question ratio before answering (sometimes I forget though) and rarely answer questions anymore for that reason. But unfortunately there are still a lot of kudoz point chasers around who'll answer any question.
Don't forget: Rising towards the top of the directory won't help you getting jobs if those clueless askers keep undercutting you!


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 01:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A possible solution Sep 24, 2007

I know about daily, weekly and monthly limits, and I perfectly understand everything is within the rules with this asker and the likes of him/her. Still it seems that many of us including me think that there is something wrong with hundreds, even thousands questions asked and no or few questions answered.

One of many possible solution may be a limitation which connects the number of questions sked to the number of questions answered. Say, after asking 100 questions the asker may ask more for each kudoz point (s)he earns. The ratio may be different, it's just a general idea.

So, any non-paying member may ask 100 questions without limitations, but to ask 101th question (s)he has to have at least 1 kudoz point, for 150th question it should be no less than 50 points. 100 points for the right to ask the 200th question - and so on.

What do you people think?

[Edited at 2007-09-24 05:53]


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Binnur Tuncel van Pomeren  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:51
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
I think I would not make it more difficult for proz... Sep 24, 2007

I would rather disagree to bring extra limit than proz currently imposes. The reason lies on this simple question: What is its added value for us and proz?
Further to Olaf's comment in regard to KudoZ point chasers, what if people love assisting? Maybe they love challenge? Is there a gauge that measures whether people want to chase after Kudoz points or simply help, no matter how simple the question sometimes might be.

I would agree with some of you who already said: you can just ignore the questions of the person you think abusive...If many other translators are of the same opinion with these allegedly abusive translators, a self fullfilling prophecy is inevitable: These abusive askers will hardly attract answers from fellow translators...
Good luck.
Binnur


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 01:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not that simple, Binnur Sep 24, 2007

As as paying member, I want to be noticed. When I ask a question I would like to have it visible for at least half an hour. It's not like this in any busy pair like mine. When there is a member with his or her 20 question per day quota, and they shoot their questions as if from a machine gun, 10 in a row, much more considered and important questions are shifted lower in the row and go to the limbo too soon.

Do you think the idea of `give-and-take' may include kudoZ questions, either? If anyone asks for help much, they have to help at least half of it (luckily, we have a way to measure help - the number of kudoz questions and answers). Let them spend their time helping others, too, not only asking for help!

Binnur Tuncel van Pomeren wrote:

I would rather disagree to bring extra limit than proz currently imposes. The reason lies on this simple question: What is its added value for us and proz?
Further to Olaf's comment in regard to KudoZ point chasers, what if people love assisting? Maybe they love challenge? Is there a gauge that measures whether people want to chase after Kudoz points or simply help, no matter how simple the question sometimes might be.

I would agree with some of you who already said: you can just ignore the questions of the person you think abusive...If many other translators are of the same opinion with these allegedly abusive translators, a self fullfilling prophecy is inevitable: These abusive askers will hardly attract answers from fellow translators...
Good luck.
Binnur


[Edited at 2007-09-24 12:10]


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 17:51
German to English
KudoZ hogs Sep 24, 2007

Kirill Semenov wrote:

When there is a member with his or her 20 question per day quota, and they shoot their questions as if from a machine gun, 10 in a row, much more considered and important questions are shifted lower in the row and go to the limbo too soon.

Do you think the idea of `give-and-take' may include kudoZ questions, either? If anyone asks for help much, they have to help at least half of it (luckily, we have a way to measure help - the number of kudoz questions and answers). Let them spend their time helping others, too, not only asking for help!



The askers you're referring to hog valuable space that would be more appropriately reserved for serious professionals with challenging questions that colleagues enjoy tackling.

They tend to exploit the system for immediate gratification - They seem to be telling us: "Just give me a word to plug into my text. I'm busy trying to make money and don't have time to mess around with details. And I'm going to close this question as soon as I can because I'll be asking 19 more questions and don't want to have to worry about doing it later. My time is valuable." They also frequently make poor choices when selecting answers.

They are also hogs in the sense that they take but don't give. But do you really want to force these people to answer pro-level questions? I don't think they have much of value to contribute. I'd rather focus on improving our system for asking questions. Here are some ideas I proposed earlier:

http://www.proz.com/topic/84230?start=15&float=


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Binnur Tuncel van Pomeren  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:51
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
So, there is an added value and this is "visibility" Sep 24, 2007

Kirill Semenov wrote:

As as paying member, I want to be noticed. When I ask a question I would like to have it visible for at least half an hour. It's not like this in any busy pair like mine. When there is a member with his or her 20 question per day quota, and they shoot their questions as if from a machine gun, 10 in a row, much more considered and important questions are shifted lower in the row and go to the limbo too soon.



The core of this problem is now more clear to me. If it is a question of visibility, maybe you should post your suggestions to proz.com team. Then, "BrowniZ points for the questions you ask" idea may be a good method to hinder abuse. For obtaining KudoZ points necessitates to have worked for an outsourcer (provider) enlisted in proz, it is not always showing a personal achievement or endeavours of a translator. Whereas BrowniZ does: Questions answered, being a participant to translation contests, attended forums.... All the BrowniZ points you obtain depend solely on your own initiatives, not on the outsourcers who have to find another prominent translator among many.


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 01:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not only "visibility", but yes, this too Sep 24, 2007

Binnur Tuncel van Pomeren wrote:
The core of this problem is now more clear to me. If it is a question of visibility, maybe you should post your suggestions to proz.com team.


I just gave an example of other drawbacks of the system, but, basically, it's a struggle for give-and-take balance. I'm tired of even adding such people to my filtered list. Asking and asking again and again - this is kinda boring as the same hobo asking you for a change at the street corner you pass by everyday. Our natural urge to help our neighbors plays a bad joke with us here. The people like these do not need help, they want us to do their work instead of them. They give nothing in exchange. They use the site as a good service for free, no money, great deal.

Dear Kim, thank you, I'll check your link a bit later.

[Edited at 2007-09-24 15:01]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 01:51
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not about educating, more about enforcing Sep 24, 2007

Hello, Kim,

Thank you for the link. I think the idea you proposed was too subtle, it cannot really change the things. I'm afraid that to change the situation, we need something more radical. It's not about occasional questions like "My dog's name is Charlie, now I want to know how it sounds in 200 languages because I love him so much that I want to make a tattoo". It's deeper.

I'm, personally, is radical enough to propose even paid practice of kudoZ questioning. If you have enough kudoZ points - feel free to ask even the stupidest question ever; if you never cared to win a point, please pay $0.50 or $1.00 when asking a question. Of course, after you asked 50 or 100 questions for free. I believe that such an approach would diminish any possible abuse to zero, and within few months! And it would help Henry and Co greatly, by the way.

In any case, the problem of "Asked: 1000, Answered: 3" remains open until we devise a good solution for it. Otherwise threads like this one will appear again and again, and we will have more people frustrated about kudoZ. Don't tell me those "I simply love to help people". I love it too. Up until the moment when the people sit comfortably onto my neck and urge me to help them.

Kim Metzger wrote:
be more appropriately reserved for serious professionals with challenging questions that colleagues enjoy tackling.

They tend to exploit the system for immediate gratification - They seem to be telling us: "Just give me a word to plug into my text. I'm busy trying to make money and don't have time to mess around with details. And I'm going to close this question as soon as I can because I'll be asking 19 more questions and don't want to have to worry about doing it later. My time is valuable." They also frequently make poor choices when selecting answers.

They are also hogs in the sense that they take but don't give. But do you really want to force these people to answer pro-level questions? I don't think they have much of value to contribute. I'd rather focus on improving our system for asking questions. Here are some ideas I proposed earlier:

http://www.proz.com/topic/84230?start=15&float=


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
BrowniZ.... Sep 24, 2007

Binnur Tuncel van Pomeren wrote:

Whereas BrowniZ does: Questions answered, being a participant to translation contests, attended forums.... All the BrowniZ points you obtain depend solely on your own initiatives, not on the outsourcers who have to find another prominent translator among many.


Did you ever think of how much BrowniZ an asker can earn only by entering the answer in the glossary? 10 BrowniZ each answer multiplied by 200, 500, 1000 questions... This is really absurd! Without participating in any way, those askers earn much more BrowniZ than I can ever reach, simply by asking questions and entering the answers in the glossary. Of course, not all do, leaving the decision to the answerer (which I find very correct), but most do.

So you have forgotten this very important point!

[Bearbeitet am 2007-09-24 16:10]


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:51
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
30 a month limit Oct 2, 2007

I too have noticed some heavy abusers in the S>E pair. Do these people do any research at all or do they just post the terms here and let others do all the work for free so they can work faster (and charge less).

Also, new translators who have built their career around Proz (and have never owned a specialized paper dictionary) perhaps think it is normal and customary to ask 5 or more questions each and every day.

If it were me, I would institute a monthly limit of 30 (which is way more than anyone should ever need).


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