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What's the use of Kudoz limits..
Thread poster: Nesrin

Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:06
English to Arabic
+ ...
Jan 1, 2008

.. as long as there are people like "baraa"?

Yesterday:
1 question posted as unregistered "baraa" http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2331764
5 questions posted as registered "baraa" e.g. http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2331857 and others
and 2 questions posted as "baraa77" e.g. http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2331911 and following. This profile was later deleted without closing the questions.

And today:
2 questions posted as "baraa777" e.g. http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2332295 . This profile was deleted as well, without closing the questions.

And what if anything can we do when we notice such abuse?

I think this is just another case which shows that empty profiles, or profiles which don't provide some basic information about the user, should not be allowed. It should take the visitor a few minutes to create a profile, maybe that will discourage some people from creating a series of pseudo-profiles.

Also, not that it will do that much, but it may be a good idea to prevent people from deleting their profiles before they've closed any open questions they have. I'm assuming that it's not possible to simultaneously open multiple profiles with the same email address, so it won't be possible to create a second profile unless questions from the first profile have been closed.

[Edited at 2008-01-02 00:42]


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Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 12:06
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
one more idea Jan 2, 2008

An additional, stricter measure could be allowing asking KudoZ questions (or performing any other activity) only after a certain period of time (24 or 48 hours) elapsed since the creation of the profile, and/or prohibiting closing a profile before a certain period of time (15 or 30 days) elapsed since the creation of the profile.

Csaba


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:06
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
What's the use Jan 2, 2008

Then they go on the cafe website and post five more, then they go to word reference and post five more, then on and on. They take on jobs for which they are not qualified and charge 1/4 of full-time translators. If you do not help them, you move to the bottom of the search list for .02 a word jobs.

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Steffen Walter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:06
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
ProZ.com can take responsibility only for its own area Jan 2, 2008

Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Then they go on the cafe website and post five more, then they go to word reference and post five more, then on and on. They take on jobs for which they are not qualified and charge 1/4 of full-time translators. If you do not help them, you move to the bottom of the search list for .02 a word jobs.


Hi Jeff,

While that may be so, what is the point of this statement? ProZ.com will never be able to stop serial askers/unprofessional people from using other venues for their purposes. All the site can do is to implement some additional mechanisms to avoid, or at least restrict, misuse/abuse, as suggested by Nesrin and Csaba (and fully supported by me).

Steffen


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Vittorio Ferretti  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:06
English to German
+ ...
Proposal Jan 2, 2008

I propose
1) To allow only questions from Kudoz members.
2) To assign negative points to askers who do not close their question within a deadline (e.g. 7 days).

Beneficial effects would be:
a) To give the answerers an option to optimize the usage of their time.
b) To rise the level of the outcome, reducing the (in my opinion) high rate of erroneous decisions.


Vittorio


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:06
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Fee for KudoZ Jan 2, 2008

To eliminate abuse, askers should be charged a fee per question they ask (say $1.00 for members, $5.00 for non-members) with a portion of the proceeds going to the answerer who is awarded the points and a portion to the site. Helping a colleague with an ocassional problem once and a while is fine, but why should we consistently offer FREE on-going help to people with no profiles, no identity, etc. and allow them to take on jobs for which they are obviously not qualified, resulting in lower rates for all - including for the translators who provide the answers. If these abusers had to pay for the answers, they would be more selective in the jobs they take on and would have to factor in the cost of translation help into their quotes, resulting in higher rates.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT THESE ABUSERS ARE LAUGHING AT THE PEOPLE WHO PROVIDE FREE ANSWERS AND DO THEIR WORK FOR THEM. AND THEY ARE LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK AT OUR EXPENSE...

The $5 vs. $1 difference would be a great incentive for membership and would eliminate empty profiles. Askers would also wait longer before closing a question since they would want to wait for the best possible answer and not close the question as quickly as possible in order to be able to ask more questions.

Besides, as mentioned in a previous thread, no one should need to ask more than 30 questions a month: http://www.proz.com/topic/85397 and this one: http://www.proz.com/topic/88934

As for the other sites, they would quickly follow Proz's model as with other features.


[Edited at 2008-01-02 23:17]


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Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:06
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
Is cooperation possible, and would it help? Jan 2, 2008

Would it be possible for ProZ and these Other Websites Which Shall Be Nameless, referred to obliquely above, to cooperate at least to the extent of exchanging information about these people, and even considering whether any joint action can be taken? Since we can't even refer to these websites by name here, I suppose it's unlikely, but I think it's a pity.

[Edited at 2008-01-02 10:48]


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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 12:06
English to Swedish
+ ...
Restrict multiple profiles by IP number! Jan 2, 2008

Nesrin wrote:
It may be a good idea to prevent people from deleting their profiles before they've closed any open questions they have. I'm assuming that it's not possible to simultaneously open multiple profiles with the same email address, so it won't be possible to create a second profile unless questions from the first profile have been closed.


Using the e-mail as unique identifyer won't do much difference, since you can create multiple e-mail addresses too.

My suggestion is to log the IP number, and restrict the user from creating multiple profiles from the same IP number within a certain timeframe.

Of course, there could be legitimate use, like a SO/HO where several translators share one computer, and each of them want to create their own profile. But if you freeze the IP number for one week, you will curb the abuse at least!

Vittorio Ferretti wrote:
1) To allow only questions from KudoZ members.
2) To assign negative points to askers who do not close their question within a deadline (e.g. 7 days).


1) I assume you mean paying Proz members. If so, I disagree. If you look at the legitimate traffic on the Kudoz pages, you'll see that a lot of it (both questions and answers) comes from non-paying users. You will scare away the non-paying users like me, who won't contribute with answers if they aren't allowed to ask questions. The result is that the entire Kudoz tool will shrink and suffer, with far fewer contributors.

2) Good idea. Let's put this forward to the administrators, it's worth considering!

/Jan


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Sonja Tomaskovic  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:06
English to German
+ ...
Other sites Jan 2, 2008

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

To eliminate abuse, askers should be charged a fee per question they ask (say $1.00 for members, $5.00 for non-members) with a portion of the proceeds going to the answerer who is awarded the points and a portion to the site.


As you mentioned above, Jeff, these askers would only leave for a site where they do not have to pay for KudoZ (or whatever these are called on the other sites). And there is no reason to believe that any of these other sites would start charging askers any fees.

In the end that would mean a loss of site visitors for Proz.com. While you and I think that Proz.com can do without these visitors, the management probably does not share our opinion.

Sonja


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:06
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Fee for KudoZ Jan 2, 2008

Once they recognize the profitability of such a system, the other sites will soon follow suit (as they have done with so many other features). And of course, some users would protest - they could not survive without taking advantage of the FREE help offered by others.

Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:
And there is no reason to believe that any of these other sites would start charging askers any fees.
Sonja


[Edited at 2008-01-02 09:29]


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Lawyer-Linguist  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 11:06
Dutch to English
+ ...
No loss in my view Jan 2, 2008

Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:

In the end that would mean a loss of site visitors for Proz.com. While you and I think that Proz.com can do without these visitors, the management probably does not share our opinion.

Sonja


Even if they do go - maybe then the site would become a place solely for professionals and not overrun by bottom-feeders as is currently the case in some language pairs.

But then again, I'm not management ...


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Sonja Tomaskovic  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:06
English to German
+ ...
Payment Practices Jan 2, 2008

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

Once they recognize the profitability of such a system, the other sites will soon follow suit (as they have done with so many other features). [Edited at 2008-01-02 09:29]


Have a look at the many payment practices lists that were created after the more popular ones turned commercial and required a fee to view entries. They are still free, and once a good PP list turns commercial many users simply switch to the free ones. If one turns commercial the next free one just pops up.


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Enrique Cavalitto
Local time: 07:06
SITE STAFF
Enforcement of general rule #7 Jan 2, 2008

In the rare instances where someone creates an extra profile in violation of rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/7#7 this is usually detected very soon (there are tools for this).

The site has a strong position regarding the enforcement of this rule, so it is unlikely that a player will be able to consistently break these limits.

Regards,
Enrique


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Birgit Richter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:06
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
Charging for Kudoz replies - No Jan 2, 2008

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

To eliminate abuse, askers should be charged a fee per question they ask (say $1.00 for members, $5.00 for non-members) with a portion of the proceeds going to the answerer who is awarded the points and a portion to the site. Helping a colleague with an ocassional problem once and a while is fine, but why should we consistently offer FREE on-going help to people with no profiles, no identity, etc. and allow them to take on jobs for which they are obviously not qualified, resulting in lower rates for all - including for the translators who provide the answers. If these abusers had to pay for the answers, they would be more selective in the jobs they take on and would have to factor in the cost of translation help into their quotes, resulting in higher rates.

DO YOU REALIZE THAT THESE ABUSERS ARE LAUGHING AT THE PEOPLE WHO PROVIDE FREE ANSWERS AND DOING THEIR WORK FOR THEM. AND THEY ARE LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK AT OUR EXPENSE...

The $5 vs. $1 difference would be a great incentive for membership and would eliminate empty profiles. Askers would also wait longer before closing a question since they would want to wait for the best possible answer and not close the question as quickly as possible in order to be able to ask more questions.

Besides, as mentioned in a previous thread, no one should need to ask more than 30 questions a month: http://www.proz.com/topic/85397 and this one: http://www.proz.com/topic/88934

As for the other sites, they would quickly follow Proz's model as with other features.


[Edited at 2008-01-02 09:31]


I am definately against charging askers and I am also against limiting the number of questions askers (paying members) should be allowed to ask on Kudoz. Being awarded Kudoz-Points (and gaining increased exposure of one's profile) should remain the only form of "payment" for answerers, plus the knowledge that they, too, can search the Kudoz-Terminology-Base for free when they need to. It's give and take. It's free of charge. It's voluntary.


[Edited at 2008-01-02 12:42]


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Alfonso Perpiña-Robert Navarro  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:06
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Another one.... Jan 2, 2008

Csaba Ban wrote:

An additional, stricter measure could be allowing asking KudoZ questions (or performing any other activity) only after a certain period of time (24 or 48 hours) elapsed since the creation of the profile, and/or prohibiting closing a profile before a certain period of time (15 or 30 days) elapsed since the creation of the profile.

Csaba


+

if possible, only allowing questions if the asker has contributed in some way previously (earning KudoZ, posting in the fora....).

Just an idea.

Regards,

Alfonso


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