| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Who make better translators, women or men? Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
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RobinB 
United States
Local time: 16:09
German to English
| Becoming a master | Nov 16, 2006 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote: Translate for 10 years every day most of the time, with growing difficulties and broadening your subject, and you become a master.
So why is that so many people have translated "every day most of the time, etc." for 10, 15, 20 years or more, and they're still rubbish. Possibly because they don't have a "trainer". Possibly because nobody's bothered that they're rubbish. Or, possibly, because they simply don't have the talent, including the hard-wired ability to distinguish between language and meaning (don't forget that really good translators end up hating language rather a lot of the time).
Translating is far, far more difficult and less intuitive than playing chess. There are far fewer really good translators than there are good chess players, believe me....
[Edited at 2006-11-16 21:50]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 02:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | No we translate for a living | Nov 19, 2006 |
Jackie Bowman wrote:
‘Good translators’ write for a living.
No, in my opinion, translators translate for a living.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 14:09
English to German
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In memoriam | I write for a living | Nov 19, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
Jackie Bowman wrote:
‘Good translators’ write for a living.
No, in my opinion, translators translate for a living.
I am a copywriter. Many of my colleagues and I are working in the advertising and marketing business. If we would ever come up with the silly idea to provide literal translations we would put ourselves out of business in a snap. Being good writers is what we are paid for. Pretty nicely paid, BTW.
There is no difference between male or female. True professionals don't encounter differences in pay, either.
Two days ago I was on the phone with one of my graphic designers (paid way above the standards in his country and even above standard in the USA) in a certain Asian country. He had the nerve to burst out in laughter when I told him that my husband was fixing dinner that night, because I had too much to do. Too bad, he needs a new employer now.
Welcome to the 21st century.
| | | | Elizabeth Ma (X)
Local time: 19:09
Portuguese to English
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| So, you fired someone for not understanding your culture? | Nov 19, 2006 |
My husband cooks our dinner all the time, and living in South America, people find it strange. They also find it strange that I am married and have a carrear, travel alone, etc. If I castrated everyone who dissaproved I would have been deported by now.
Welcome to the rest of the world!
Punnishing people for having ideas that are different from yours does not lead to understanding, more likely resentment.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 02:39
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | But are you a translator? | Nov 20, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Balasubramaniam wrote:
Jackie Bowman wrote:
‘Good translators’ write for a living.
No, in my opinion, translators translate for a living. I am a copywriter.
Proz.com being a translators workplace, I would presume that the discussions here revolve around translators.
It is rather unfortunate that this site is being taken over by copywriters, writers, engineers, and others who are primarily not translators.
And when these outsiders, pardon my using the term, but I think it is appropriate, begin to set the rules of the translation profession, I think it is time for the real translators to stand up and cry foul.
Translation is a separate profession from copywriting, copyediting, editing, creative writing, proofreading and many other related, but demonstrably different professions.
Translation has its own set of requirements and skill sets and domain of work. We don't write, copyedit, edit, proof-read, etc., but translate.
In case, being basically a copywriter and adman, you don't know what translation is, it is reproducing the text in one language as closely as possible in the target language. No creative liberties can be taken with the original. The ideal transltion is one that is an exact replica in another language of the original.
An imaginative translator is a poor translator, though he can be a good writer. A translator cannot play with the text he has to translate, just translate it.
| | | | Cristina Golab
United States
Local time: 17:09
English to Spanish
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| Translation is much more than that | Nov 21, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
you don't know what translation is, it is reproducing the text in one language as closely as possible in the target language. No creative liberties can be taken with the original. The ideal transltion is one that is an exact replica in another language of the original.
A translator cannot play with the text he has to translate, just translate it.
I do not agree with these statements. Translation involves a big creative process and that is what makes it difficult. It is not simply about creating a replica of one text into another language. It is not just about finding an "equivalent". Often you find words and concepts that do not even exist in the target language. Often you find texts that have been horribly written in their source language, so what do you there?
If we simply had to translate, we could pretty much use altavista's babelfish.
| | | | | Translation as transliteration? | Nov 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
Jackie Bowman wrote:
‘Good translators’ write for a living.
No, in my opinion, translators translate for a living.
They do, but it’s a distinction without a difference. To suggest that translators don’t write for a living is the same as to suggest that interpreters don’t talk for a living. They do, and to do it at the highest levels they need astounding mental agility, remarkable recall and a very developed capacity to convey nuance and tone. Of course, it’s so fundamental as to go without saying that they also need exceptional command of the grammar and vocabulary of at least two languages. But only a minority of the many people who have such a command are great interpreters. The other things are what make the difference.
Translation has its own set of requirements and skill sets and domain of work. We don't write, copyedit, edit, proof-read, etc., but translate.
Of course you write, unless you’re in some niche market where you take a source text and render it in the form of cartoons. And I’d contend that any translator who is even minimally conscientious will copyedit and proofread his or her own work before submitting it to the client.
… translation [is] reproducing the text in one language as closely as possible in the target language. No creative liberties can be taken with the original. The ideal translation is one that is an exact replica in another language of the original … An imaginative translator is a poor translator, though he can be a good writer. A translator cannot play with the text he has to translate, just translate it.
In my experience, this is simply not true. I have to translate very long documents, usually on international development issues and generally for some very serious organizations. Seldom do I return a translation to the client without a list of questions and/or comments. Often, these are simple factual inaccuracies. The writer of the original, for example, has given the wrong name for (say) the capital of Honduras, or is mistaken about the precise years of a presidency in the United States. It would, at the least, be somewhat unprofessional of me to ignore such errors when I see them and simply to write what the original author wrote.
And while much of what I translate is conceptually excellent and pretty well written in the source, much of it is conceptually excellent but pretty badly written in the source. And almost all of it will be published. Should I refuse to take ‘creative liberties’ and therefore write poor English to match poor Spanish? Of course not. While always seeking to produce a faithful reflection of the source’s meaning, I will take as many liberties as have to be taken in order to produce something that is as accessible, precise and elegant as I can make it—in short, to produce something that reads as if it had been written in English in the first place. If I aim from the outset to produce ‘an exact replica’ of the original, I will find myself with an English translation that reads like a translation—and a pretty poor translation, too.
All of which, of course, raises another point …
Proz.com being a translators workplace, I would presume that the discussions here revolve around translators … It is rather unfortunate that this site is being taken over by copywriters, writers, engineers, and others who are primarily not translators … And when these outsiders, pardon my using the term, but I think it is appropriate, begin to set the rules of the translation profession, I think it is time for the real translators to stand up and cry foul … Translation is a separate profession from copywriting, copyediting, editing, creative writing, proofreading and many other related, but demonstrably different professions.
… So the highly gifted economists and political scientists and anthropologists whose work I’m translating, they should confine themselves to thinking about economics and politics and anthropology, is that right? And the writing about economics and politics and anthropology should be done by writers. And when the writers have finished with it, the stuff goes to a translator, who produces ‘an exact replica’. And the replica then goes to a copyeditor. And then to a proofreader. This sounds tremendous as a job-creation scheme, but what a complicated world it would be.
| | | | | Tortologies and so forth | Nov 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:The ideal transltion is one that is an exact replica in another language
An 'exact' replica? OK. I take your point. But what about an inexact replica?
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 14:09
English to German
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In memoriam | I have no idea why I am posting this reply. | Nov 30, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
In case, being basically a copywriter and adman, you don't know what translation is
An imaginative translator is a poor translator
Maybe because I just received this belated post in my mailbox a minute ago and because I just submitted an editorial for a US advertising magazine this morning. In this article I am talking about a process called Trans-Creation. About shades of meaning, idiomatic quirks and how cultural conventions impact the meaning of any translation. That advertising translation is a synthesis of language, knowledge of local cultures and good old-fashioned marketing know-how.
How do you translate a joke?
I thought the topic was "women or men", BTW.
Greetings,
Nicole
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 14:09
English to German
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In memoriam | To Elizabeth | Nov 30, 2006 |
Elizabeth Marie wrote:
Punnishing people for having ideas that are different from yours does not lead to understanding, more likely resentment.
Please read it over. The person burst out in laughter and laughed at my husband (his employer). Hm... Something that is not allowed in any culture, right? There.
Greetings!
| | | | | Laughing as a sackable offence | Nov 30, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
He had the nerve to burst out in laughter when I told him that my husband was fixing dinner that night, because I had too much to do. Too bad, he needs a new employer now.
(...)
He...laughed at my husband (his employer)
Something that is not allowed in any culture, right?
It could be argued that it might show a certain lack of respect, but I dunno that it warrants instant dismissal, though. On the face of it, it seems a little draconian. I would venture to suggest that, if the entire exchange had taken place on UK soil, you'd find yourself in front of an employment tribunal pretty damn sharpish. Lord knows, there are enough men who have 'issues' working for women, you don't really need to add fuel to the fire
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 14:09
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | @ Charlie: In retrospective | Nov 30, 2006 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
He had the nerve to burst out in laughter when I told him that my husband was fixing dinner that night, because I had too much to do. Too bad, he needs a new employer now.
(...)
He...laughed at my husband (his employer)
Something that is not allowed in any culture, right?
It could be argued that it might show a certain lack of respect, but I dunno that it warrants instant dismissal, though. On the face of it, it seems a little draconian. I would venture to suggest that, if the entire exchange had taken place on UK soil, you'd find yourself in front of an employment tribunal pretty damn sharpish. Lord knows, there are enough men who have 'issues' working for women, you don't really need to add fuel to the fire
I don't know why I mentioned it at all. Must have been in cranky overtime mode. Fact: It was not the first time but this doesn't belong here. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back and just collided happily with the male/female topic. Oh well..
Greetings!
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| Mostly female co-workers | Apr 21, 2007 |
When I'm at the office, I work with 99% female colleagues (lucky me!!!!!!!!!!!) and I can confirm it's not only a pleasure, but helpful too.
Robert.
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