Susanna Garcia United Kingdom Local time: 17:32 Member (2008) Italian to English + ...
Wales
Jul 14, 2010
True bilingualism is alive and, well almost, kicking here. My partner works in a fully bilingual environment and functions equally in either Welsh or English. Unlike many of the bilingual students I taught during my years in education, he is not only able to speak, read and understand Welsh to the same degree as English but, and this is where the difference lies, writes it flawlessly too.
Diolch
Suzi
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Ulrike H Germany Local time: 18:32 English to German + ...
Indeed, what is bilingualism...
Jul 14, 2010
Have read the discussion but not the link, so sorry if I repeat things said in the link...
I suppose with "true" bilingualism you mean balanced bilingualism, or someone being ambilingual, and you are speaking of the language knowledge, rather than the language use. Based on knowledge, the definition by different linguists of "bilingualism" is quite different (from "native-like control of two languages" by Bloomfield in 1933 to "the ability to produce sentences in the second language" by Einar Haugen in 1978 - sorry, have no more recent quotes)... But of course there is also the definition based on use, like Weinreich defined it as "the alternate use of two languages". According to Haugen by the way an "ambilingual" person, i.e. who speaks both languages perfectly, is not recognizeable as a bilingual - and thus he sees bilingualism as more "true" in those that are recognizeable (at least that is how i understand it). Then of course there is differentiation as to when (i.e. from what age) and in what context (home, school etc.) the languages are learned...
So one thing I wonder is who is more "truely" bilingual - the person who can speak both languages with grammatic and phonetic perfection, because they learned their second language in school and university courses, but might actually mainly use one of them - or the person who might speak one of them with an accent and grammar mistakes, and not able to write the other one as it was the language of home, not of school - but uses both languages every day as they live in a bilingual environment. The latter case is probably the more common one on a worldwide scale...
And often enough there is not one dominant languages that is good for everything, and the other is just good for some things, but if someone lives in a diglossic situation, each language is dominant for certain topics (and the Codeswitching mentioned above often shows that too, afaik one of the aspects in Codeswitching is topic, i.e. people might automatically switch language when the topic changes from family life to work life, for example). And of course the dominant language can change in the course of one's life...
Anyway, my personal opinion is that all the different types of bilingualism are "true"... But as for completely equilingualism/balanced bilingualism/however you would call it, yes, I suppose it is quite rare, as usually different languages will always be in some way connected to different contexts...
Anyway, sorry that I am rambling, the topic just caught my interest as I am currently finishing my graduation paper about Quechua-Spanish bilingualism in Peru...
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I think it may be possible if you have parents of two languages and live in a bilingual community, where almost everybody speaks and uses both languages.
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Arianne Farah China Local time: 00:32 Member (2008) English to French
Very true
Jul 14, 2010
John Fossey wrote:
To listen to two truly bilingual people talking to each other, they switch from one language to the other mid-sentence, even just for a word or two if the concept being expressed is easier said in one language or the other. I suspect it may be more related to the environment - if most people around are one language or the other, for example, then they'll favour the language of those around them.
I consider myself a "true bilingual". Both my parents were bilingual and I was speaking both languages coherently by the age of three. My education followed an immersion program (half day English, half day French - sciences and art taught in English, history/geography and music taught in French). Even once I reached University, my first degree was a major in Biology and a minor in French literature. I never once let one of the languages get away from me; I read the news in English and French, I watch Hollywood blockbusters and classics in English but go out of my way to fill my shelves with French movies (proportionally rare). I read both in English and in French for pleasure, etc. The list goes on.
What John said is very true - one of my friends is also bilingual so when we speak we go back and forth between the languages, simply popping the first word that comes to mind in whichever language. At one point, while travelling, we were doing this in an Internet café and a man was sitting between us... after a few minutes he felt the need to speak out that he'd never heard anyone switch languages the way we were doing and if we spoke any more... we started to laugh - we met in University while studying Chinese and we both studied Spanish for 4 years
Any true bilingual will have had a friend ask them: "What language do you dream in?" in an attempt to pigeon hole them in a language. I have found myself unable to answer - I dream in concepts, actions and thoughts and then only verbalize them depending on whom I'm speaking to...
The only caveat is that I only translate from English to French since I have spent the last 7 years refining my art in that particular language pair; it was a conscious choice made when I started studying translation - I could either do both pairs well or I could pour all my efforts into a single pair and make it truly excellent... I haven't looked back since.
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Pablo Bouvier Spain Local time: 18:32 Member German to Spanish + ...
Does true bilingualism exist?
Jul 15, 2010
David Hollywood wrote:
is there true bilingualism?
does true Swiss, Belgian or Canadian people exist...?
[Editado a las 2010-07-15 01:07 GMT]
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Paula Borges Brazil Local time: 13:32 Member (2010) English to Portuguese + ...
I now realise...
Jul 15, 2010
David is saying he hasn't met a bilingual person, which doesn't mean they don't exist.
As for dreams, yes most of the times we don't dream about words, do we? But I recall dreaming of words that don't even exist.
I've been paying more attention to what I say since this thread was started, and I've been noticing that when we're speaking that language hybrid, we're also making new words. We've been using Portuguese nouns as verbs in English and so on... A real mess.
I had a roommate once who'd leave the TV or the radio on. He'd ask me about what I had heard, I'd tell him the news, or the content of a TV program. He'd ask me "which language was it in?", and I could never remember. It seemed to amaze him.
I still think some people are more likely to be bilingual than others. For example, some people live abroad for over 20 years and never become fluent in a second language. For anyone who has tutored language, it feels like they are somehow afraid of thinking outside those patterns, they won't let go. Other students just go through everything and become fluent in a few years. It's not like one is trying harder than the other, it seems to be automatic for some people, they become exposed to a different language and they immediately absorb it.
I have no authority to say anything, but I actually believe these people have different types of intelligence and different activities in their brains. Perhaps the ones that learn languages so easily think in abstract concepts, not words. They tend to be more dreamy, artistic and eloquent.
Also, I'm not sure if I agree with the idea that someone has to master two languages to be considered bilingual. I doubt anyone ever gets to master one. You're always better at speaking, writing or reading.
[Edited at 2010-07-15 02:08 GMT]
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Therrien Canada Local time: 12:32 Member (2010) English to French + ...
Absolutes do not exist
Jul 15, 2010
I think it does exist, because absolutes don't.
There is no such thing as perfect bilingualism, or anything -lingualism for that matter.
I'm French, I've spoken English since a boy and am always betrayed by my French accent and the occasional (or not so occasional) faux-pas.
But, if I'd compare myself to an 800-words-vocabulary college kid, I sure am as English as can be.
You have to make the comparison with "something else" in order to properly evaluate it.
In the professional field, localization is the key to properly translate to a certain public. The not-so-american faux-pas I can be upbraided about by the professional American-English linguist will probably pass as top-notch by the French-Canadian.
If you compare a foreigner to a native, you'll find faults. Always. Always.
If its not in the grammar, syntax, punctuation, etc., it will be in the "flavor" of it.
Hope that helps:
Alex
[Edited at 2010-07-15 17:55 GMT]
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Gabriel Arevalo Canada Local time: 12:32 Member (2008) English to Spanish
You are what you believe you are...
Nov 13, 2010
David Hollywood wrote:
is there true bilingualism?
I totally agree with those who support that truly bilingualism does exist but partially.
I mean only for certain fields.
I know several professionals truly bilingual in the IT field but shameful in sports for instance. So it is also a matter of personal verbal and analytic abilities.
In fact, nobody knows everything even in their native language. Some people have tremendous self-confidence and consider themselves conversant in several languages. This is great for them but being proficient (truly) in more than two languages is a privilege reserved for few.
So, in brief you are what you believe you are, however for practical purposes confidence is not enough as evident facts has predominance.
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xxxPT Translati United States Local time: 09:32 Japanese to English
practically speaking...does it matter?
Nov 13, 2010
As others said, since languages continuously evolve, I don't think there are any perfect bilinguals or even "lingual".
I know a lot of people want to place some type of standard on the word "bilingual", or that claiming that you're bilingual is taboo. I find some people (not here, just in general) are too sensitive about it.
It's a word that naturally has an infinite grey area and always will.
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 18:32 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
Interesting.
Nov 13, 2010
Susanna Garcia wrote:
True bilingualism is alive and, well almost, kicking here. My partner works in a fully bilingual environment and functions equally in either Welsh or English. Unlike many of the bilingual students I taught during my years in education, he is not only able to speak, read and understand Welsh to the same degree as English but, and this is where the difference lies, writes it flawlessly too.
Diolch
Suzi
Yes, I've visited Wales once and was surprised at the level of bilingualism. All street signs, etc were Welsh/English bilingual. Is the usage of Welsh as common among younger generation as it was with older people? Is it obligatory at elementary schools to learn Welsh, or is it so in just some parts of Wales?
[Edited at 2010-11-13 21:07 GMT]
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Robert Forstag United States Local time: 12:32 Member (2003) Spanish to English + ...
A very rare phenomenon
Nov 14, 2010
In terms of having (as Henry puts it) "a high degree of virtuosity" in two or more languages, bilingualism or multilingualism would seem a rare phenomenon indeed. As regards English (the only language I am qualified to judge), I typically see and hear small flaws in the writing and speech of non-native speakers who clearly have a strong command of the language and who, according to all but the most rigorous definition, are clearly "bilingual."
To me, language use is like handedness. A preference develops very early for one hand or the other, even in the event of strenuous and successful efforts to develop use of the non-dominant hand.
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