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Switzerland's so-called mother tongues
Thread poster: Roddy Stegemann
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
Switzerland
Local time: 22:56
Member (2003)
Spanish to Italian
+ ...
Very delicate matter.. Feb 2, 2008

Hamo wrote:
You have stated that the Italian spoken in Switzerland differs little from the Italian spoken in Italy. This would make good sense in so far as there are more Lombard Swiss than there are Italian Swiss, and standard Italian appears to be what both Lombardy Swiss and Italian Swiss learn in school.


What can I say. I am Italian and I have spoken to many Ticinesi (Italian Swiss), and we speak exactly the same language...

Another matter is the "lombardo" or what some would call "dialect". Now that's a delicate matter... Many "regional" or "minority" languages in Italy are unjustly called "dialects" (dialects of what anyway? Not of Italian, of course) - while they are really languages with distinct morphology and lexicon - also recognised by the UNESCO (like my Emiliano (which *has* dialects: Reggiano, Modenese, Parmigiano...))

however, can a Lombard understand a Italian or Swiss Italian?


I don't think this situation would ever happen anyway...

Flavio


 
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
Flavio Ferri-Benedetti
Switzerland
Local time: 22:56
Member (2003)
Spanish to Italian
+ ...
The problem of "dialects"... Feb 2, 2008

Hamo wrote:
May I presume then that you have been brought up the way so many children are brought up by parents who want to see their children excel in school, but value their own linguistic bringing of little value with regard to their children's future?


A little story: when my mother (born in the 50s), from the countryside of Reggio Emilia, started her obligatory schooling at 6, she didn't speak a word of "Italian". The teacher, horrified, went to my grandmother and asked: "How come she only speaks Emiliano?" - to which my grandmother replied, quite naturally: "well, I send her to school for the Italian, no?"


In other words, the reason you understand Bergomask is because you heard it from your parents when you were young, but they did not encourage you to speak it -- not even in the home.


I understand Reggiano because I have heard it around with my parents (not often), but mostly with my grandparents. Nobody teaches you regional languages... which is a shame. And, by the way, I would really avoid using the word "dialect" for most of these regional languages.

1) Besides doing well in school and a general desire to want to speak the language of your countrymen, are there any other incentives for wanting to learn standard Italian. Does it mean better job opportunity, entry into Italy's top universities, for example?


Well... you cannot choose. You learn Italian in school and from your parents and that's it. You have absolutely no choice in the professsional or academical world if you don't speak Italian. In Italy, speaking a regional languages (which they call "dialect") is considered to be a "countryside", vulgar feature.


2) In contrast what is the incentive for maintaining one's mother tongue that is different from the standard Italian spoken in one's region. Is it only historical? For example, is there a body of literature that would be closed to you, if you did not maintain literacy in the dialect of your own language group?


Unfortunately regional languages have been "minorised" - thus, literary creation has been discouraged and undermined. There *is* literature, though. Anyway, the interest must be really a personal one, and quite a strong one, as years go by. The younger the generations, the less they care about regional, small languages. They think it's all but posh.

Flavio


 
Roddy Stegemann
Roddy Stegemann
United States
Local time: 13:56
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dialect, Local Community, and the Environment Feb 11, 2008

Thank you for your input after so many years.

It would be a travesty for me to remain a member of ProZ.com and not encourage further dialogue on this subject.

I would like to thank you for the anecdote about your mother and grandmother. Surely, it must be true that parents and grandparents alike value their mother tongue well enough to share it with children and grandchildren who show an interest in learning it.

Is the source of the problem not with nation
... See more
Thank you for your input after so many years.

It would be a travesty for me to remain a member of ProZ.com and not encourage further dialogue on this subject.

I would like to thank you for the anecdote about your mother and grandmother. Surely, it must be true that parents and grandparents alike value their mother tongue well enough to share it with children and grandchildren who show an interest in learning it.

Is the source of the problem not with national educational ministries who do little or nothing to encourage languages that do not enhance a unified national identity? They are so concerned about national greatness and economic strength that they ignore the importance of local community and the environment. These latter enhance the quality of life by placing a drag on wanton industrial growth that national governments often fail to regulate until significant damage has occurred.

Surely, there has always been a tension between conservative and progressive forces, but never in the history of humankind has this tension been greater. Local communities are being crushed world-wide by big business whose leaders care little about "parochial attitudes" and have the luxury of being able to choose their place of residence -- a luxury that workers often do not have.

Children tend to be future oriented, and national educational ministries take advantage of their desire to get ahead socially in order to promote national goals that overemphasize economic growth over the quality of life. Children need to be taught the importance of local community in the preservation of social fabric and environmental integrity.
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Gemma Monco Waters
Gemma Monco Waters  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 22:56
English to Italian
+ ...
Italian is an artificial language, created for practical purposes. Mar 26, 2008

Hamo wrote:

Thank you for your input after so many years.

It would be a travesty for me to remain a member of ProZ.com and not encourage further dialogue on this subject.

I would like to thank you for the anecdote about your mother and grandmother. Surely, it must be true that parents and grandparents alike value their mother tongue well enough to share it with children and grandchildren who show an interest in learning it.

Is the source of the problem not with national educational ministries who do little or nothing to encourage languages that do not enhance a unified national identity? They are so concerned about national greatness and economic strength that they ignore the importance of local community and the environment. These latter enhance the quality of life by placing a drag on wanton industrial growth that national governments often fail to regulate until significant damage has occurred.

Surely, there has always been a tension between conservative and progressive forces, but never in the history of humankind has this tension been greater. Local communities are being crushed world-wide by big business whose leaders care little about "parochial attitudes" and have the luxury of being able to choose their place of residence -- a luxury that workers often do not have.

Children tend to be future oriented, and national educational ministries take advantage of their desire to get ahead socially in order to promote national goals that overemphasize economic growth over the quality of life. Children need to be taught the importance of local community in the preservation of social fabric and environmental integrity.


 
Gemma Monco Waters
Gemma Monco Waters  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 22:56
English to Italian
+ ...
Italian is an artificial language, created for practical purposes. Mar 26, 2008

As Hamo so cleverly put it, Italy has such a long history , during which we were divided in hundreds and hundreds of little and big towns, each speaking its variety of Latin -derived language. And this is the point I am going to make: a dialect is a vulgarized version of an existing language, while in Italy there was no such language, common to all of us. All Italian varieties of speech derive from the way Latin has evolved in that part of the Italian peninsula, (there was no Italy then). For ce... See more
As Hamo so cleverly put it, Italy has such a long history , during which we were divided in hundreds and hundreds of little and big towns, each speaking its variety of Latin -derived language. And this is the point I am going to make: a dialect is a vulgarized version of an existing language, while in Italy there was no such language, common to all of us. All Italian varieties of speech derive from the way Latin has evolved in that part of the Italian peninsula, (there was no Italy then). For centuries the various towns were isolated from one another, barbarians roamed the peninsula, saracens raided our coasts, how could the inhabitants of the peninsula keep in touch enough to evolve a common language?
When Italy was made, and let's not forget that those two "illustrious" makers of Italy, Cavour and the king did not speak any variety of Italian, but French (read Dennis Mack Smith, if you don't believe me), there was the necessity to make such a mass of people that spoke so differently that, even living within a few hundreds of km, they did not understand each other, it was necessary, I was saying, to bring them to speak the same language. it took century, and only the advent of the radio and the tv performed the miracle.
Now most Italians understand each other if they speak this artificial language called Italian, but, if they revert to their regional variety of Italian, they do not have a clue.
You may delude yourselves and think that Tuscany is the mother of the Italian language, but I heard some interviews on tv with old tuscan men, that needed subtitles to be understood.
Speaking about the cultural value of the different varieties of Italian, are we going to forget that that great man Pasolini ( a great supporter of the value of the different varieties of Italian) wrote and made films in Roman, which was not his language, and wrote beautiful poems in Friulian, which need a translation to be understood? Are we going to forget the production in Neapolitan of that greatest of all Italian playwright, Eduardo De Filippo?
Are we going to forget that the masterpieces of Neorealism and the great cinematography of the 60' in Italy were in the Roman or Neapolitan varieties of Italian?
We must not forget our linguistic varieties, because in this way we lose a part of ourselves and our past.
Gemma Monco Waters, who speaks Gaetan, Roman, Neapolitan, Italian and English, and is proud of it.
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Switzerland's so-called mother tongues






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