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Yugurs; Gansu; Turkic language/peoples in China
Thread poster: chica nueva

chica nueva
Local time: 11:21
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Feb 13, 2009

Yugurs; Gansu; Turkic language/peoples in China

Hello

I am not a Turkish-speaker, but I have some interest in Gansu Province and Turkic language/peoples in China.

1 Gansu: I have an interest in Gansu Province and have translated an article on some of the minorities there. Gansu is next to Qinghai. The old Silk Road passes through it.

2 Gansu Yugurs: The Yugur people there, around 8,000+ people (1980s), speak a Turkic language.

3 Turkic influence: Other minority languages in Gansu, such as Dongxiang, have Tujue (= Turkic) loan words.

4 Historical background: I think some of this Turkic settlement may be dating back to the Tang Dynasty when there were sinicised-empires to the north such as the Tanguts, Khitans and others (and quite a lot of skirmishing, as I understand it). The Tujue/Turkuts may have been earlier than this even. (But there are others much more expert than I in this.) The Tanguts were wiped out by Genghis Khan in 1226. The Salars came later, and their language seems to be different.

5 Folklore: There seem to have been migrations into 'Chinese Turkestan' (as it was once known) and Gansu in the Yuan 'Pax Mongolica' period. I understand that the Salar are thought to have arrived from Samarkand (or possibly Turkmenistan) in the 14C.

6 Folklore - Yugur: I have translated an account of the founding legend of the Yugur people. In the Chinese source text, it uses 'Aba' for Father. Other: I have heard of the water-monster of Tianchi lake in Xinjiang, and have a story from Gansu about flood-dragons living in a lake.

7 Language: I have noticed some very interesting developments in the documentation and use of Salar in China recently.

8 Research Work in English: I notice a field-study on the Muslim Salars of Qinghai (and Uygurs of Xinjiang) has been done recently by Russian researchers. A number of linguists and academics in China and abroad are working on aspects of Salar language.

Lesley

Notes :

[Excerpt from a reference (pre-Tang history): '...Gokturk Empire into two parts (584) -- the Eastern Gokturk (Dong Tujue 東突厥) and the Western Gokturk (Xi Tujue 西突厥)...' (Google)

The Chinese words for the Turks: (Tujue 突厥[twetkjuet] or Tiele 铁勒[tjetlak]) are derived from the Turkish word "Türk" or "Türküt". (Google)

Turkic people and the Xiongnu: may be related.

Salar origins: the word 'Oghuz': appears in 8thC inscriptions in Mongolia.


[Edited at 2009-02-14 00:44 GMT]


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chica nueva
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Link: Salar Feb 14, 2009

http://www.proz.com/forum/turkish/127357-how_closely_they_are_related:_turkish_and_salar_language.html


[Edited at 2009-02-15 22:29 GMT]


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chica nueva
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Salar developments: Link (in Chinese) Feb 14, 2009

http://www.cnsalar.com/slr01.asp (Chinese-language site)
http://www.cnsalar.com/ (Visuals)
The Salars of China 中国撒拉族

[Edited at 2009-02-15 22:29 GMT]


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chica nueva
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Link: the Xiongnu Feb 15, 2009

http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/64198-looking_for_the_original_texts_of_史記_shiji_of_司馬遷_sima_qian_in_english.html#497304
The Xiongnu

China's ancient enemies of the Han Dynasty, horseback 'nomad-raiders' of the northern frontier.

Sometimes referred to as 'Proto-Turks'

Also referred to as 'Huns'


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Tsogt Gombosuren  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 16:21
Member (2004)
English to Mongolian
+ ...
Some additions Feb 16, 2009

lai an wrote:

2 Gansu Yugurs: The Yugur people there, around 8,000+ people (1980s), speak a Turkic language.

3 Turkic influence: Other minority languages in Gansu, such as Dongxiang, have Tujue (= Turkic) loan words.

6 Folklore - Yugur: I have translated an account of the founding legend of the Yugur people. In the Chinese source text, it uses 'Aba' for Father. Other: I have heard of the water-monster of Tianchi lake in Xinjiang, and have a story from Gansu about flood-dragons living in a lake.



2. While 3/4 of Yugurs speak a Turkic language, 1/4 of them speak a Mongolian language. Please see the article at the Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugur

3. Dongxiang people speak a Mongolian language and they are Muslims of Mongolian descent. You may see the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

6. "Abu" means "Father" in the classic Mongolian script.


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chica nueva
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Gansu Province: Turkic influence; Yugur and Dongxiang nationalities Feb 16, 2009

Tsogt Gombosuren wrote:

lai an wrote:

2 Gansu Yugurs: The Yugur people there, around 8,000+ people (1980s), speak a Turkic language.

3 Turkic influence: Other minority languages in Gansu, such as Dongxiang, have Tujue (= Turkic) loan words.

6 Folklore - Yugur: I have translated an account of the founding legend of the Yugur people. In the Chinese source text, it uses 'Aba' for Father. Other: I have heard of the water-monster of Tianchi lake in Xinjiang, and have a story from Gansu about flood-dragons living in a lake.



2. While 3/4 of Yugurs speak a Turkic language, 1/4 of them speak a Mongolian language. Please see the article at the Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugur

3. Dongxiang people speak a Mongolian language and they are Muslims of Mongolian descent. You may see the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

6. "Abu" means "Father" in the classic Mongolian script.


Hello Tsogt

I am so happy to have someone to talk to about my translation! Thank you for taking the time, and correcting and updating the information.

Here are some relevant exerpts. Please contact me further if you would like to see the whole text. It includes details of dress, religion, customs, origins, economy, local government etc

'Gansu's Minority Nationalities

Gansu is a multi-nationality province; there are Hui, Tibetan, Mongolian, Yugur (Yuku), Dongxiang, Kazak (Kazakh), Bao'an (Bonan, Paoan), Salar (Sala), Tu, Man (Manchu) altogether more than ten minority nationalities, ... The Dongxiang, the Yugur and the Bao'an are the three minorities most characteristic of our province.

The Yugur Nationality

The Yugur nationality has approximately 8,400 people. This nationality calls itself "Yaohu'er" and "Xilayugu'er". ... Part of their language is close to the Uygur language, and they also commonly use the Han language and Han script.

The Dongxiang Nationality

The Dongxiang nationality has 190,000 people. ..., they have their own national language classified as Mongolic in the Altaic family of languages, of which almost half is Han loan words plus a small quantity of Tujue (Turkic) loan words. ...

Translated from Duan, Qi & Li eds., Gansu Tourist Guide (1982), China Tourism Publishing House, Beijing

Would you and other Mongolian peers be interested in discussing Gansu: Bao'an and Mongolic language/peoples in China?

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-16 22:29 GMT]


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chica nueva
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Yugur link to Mongolic; Yugur migrations; A'Ba, Mula Feb 17, 2009

Tsogt Gombosuren wrote:

2. While 3/4 of Yugurs speak a Turkic language, 1/4 of them speak a Mongolian language. Please see the article at the Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugur

3. Dongxiang people speak a Mongolian language and they are Muslims of Mongolian descent. You may see the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

6. "Abu" means "Father" in the classic Mongolian script.


Tsogt:

@ 2 Thank you! Perhaps there should be a link for 'Yugur' (this thread) to Mongolic languages here then:
http://www.proz.com/forum/linguistics/127751-baoan_dongxiang;_gansu;_mongolic_language_peoples_in_china.html

@ 6

1 '... At the beginning of the Ming, the Yugur moved east again and came through the Pass. '

2 According to tradition, long long ago, the Yugur moved about in search of pasture outside the Jiayu Pass. ...'

3 The terms A'Ba and Mula:

Anqian Zanji said, "A'Ba, our tribe left home a long time ago, and no-one knows where we should go, the way is hard, the old people have all died, and half of our livestock have died too. What shall we do?" The old man said, "Mula (meaning young boy), ...

... and quite a few people had perished from lack of water. One day, Anqian Zanji held up a basin of sheep's blood for A'Ba to drink and, in tears, told his father, ...

Translated from Duan, Qi & Li eds., Gansu Tourist Guide (1982), China Tourism Publishing House, Beijing

Lesley

[Edited at 2009-02-17 19:28 GMT]


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chica nueva
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Russian enthographic study; Kunstkamera; Academy of Sciences Feb 17, 2009

lai an wrote:

8 Research Work in English: I notice a field-study on the Muslim Salars of Qinghai (and Uygurs of Xinjiang) has been done recently by Russian researchers.

Lesley



Here is the link:
http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/news/2008_10_24/


[Edited at 2009-02-17 19:32 GMT]


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chica nueva
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the Yugur migration/founding legend Apr 3, 2009

See Point 6 at the top of the thread here:
http://www.proz.com/forum/linguistics/127606-yugurs;_gansu;_turkic_language_peoples_in_china.html

lai an wrote:

Tsogt Gombosuren wrote:
6. "Abu" means "Father" in the classic Mongolian script.


Tsogt:

@ 6
The terms A'Ba and Mula:
Anqian Zanji said, "A'Ba, our tribe left home a long time ago, and no-one knows where we should go, the way is hard, the old people have all died, and half of our livestock have died too. What shall we do?" The old man said, "Mula (meaning young boy), ...
... and quite a few people had perished from lack of water. One day, Anqian Zanji held up a basin of sheep's blood for A'Ba to drink and, in tears, told his father, ...




裕固族溯源于唐代的回鹘,回鹘因内乱外祸,其一支自鄂尔浑河迁至河西走廊,历史上称河西回鹘。十世纪初建立了封建王朝,称甘州回鹘。明初,裕固族又东迁入关。

The Yugur can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty Huihu. Because the Huihu were in a state of disorder within and disaster without, one offshoot moved from the E'erhun River to the Hexi Corridor and were known in history as the Hexi Huihu. At the beginning of the tenth century, they set up a feudal dynasty known as Ganzhou Huihu. At the beginning of the Ming, the Yugur moved east again and came through the Pass.

According to tradition, long long ago, the Yugur moved about in search of pasture outside the Jiayu Pass. Then, when the Yi invaded, they had no choice but to set out on a large-scale eastward migration, taking the young and the old with them, driving their livestock, and eating and sleeping in the open. Because they could not withstand the rigours of the long and difficult journey, the old people of the tribe died one after the other. Only Anqian Zanji's A'ba , Anba Te'er was still alive, and finally he also broke down from constant overwork, and walked with difficulty. Then Anqian Zanji put him in a homespun la (a type of woollen sack) on the back of a yak and continued on. But this migration not only had no one in command, but it was blind and aimless. How the people longed for someone to come out and lead them all forward in one direction!

When Anqian Zanji saw his fellow tribesmen in misery and distress, and found that he himself could think of no way out, he spent the whole day with a long face and heaving deep sighs. But when the old man saw his son weighed down with care, he asked, "What are you unhappy about. Whatever is troubling you tell me about it!" Anqian Zanji said, "A'Ba, our tribe left home a long time ago, and no-one knows where we should go, the way is hard, the old people have all died, and half of our livestock have died too. What shall we do?" The old man said, "Mula (meaning young boy), you see how the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Providing we go towards the place where the sun rises, we will definitely be able to find an ideal place. The people there wear "short-waisted shoes".

When Anqian Zanji told his fellow tribesmen these words, everyone was very happy. The tribe was filled with rejoicing and, singing lamao (the first line of a Yugur folk song), they drove their livestock towards the place where the sun rose.

The several thousand-strong procession, an enormous cavalcade, moved eastward. Very soon they entered the vast Great Sandy Desert. In the desert, the people moved with difficulty. After only a few days, all the water they had brought with them was used up, and quite a few people had perished from lack of water. One day, Anqian Zanji held up a basin of sheep's blood for A'Ba to drink and, in tears, told his father, "The spirit of death has come upon the tribe. Because there is no water, the people are all waiting to die." The old man said, "My child, let the pao ox look for water for you." The son was bewildered and said, "We've had so many of our strong young men look for water everywhere, and none of them have found any. Can the pao ox find it?" The old man told him this story from his past: Once, when he was driving a herd of cattle to pasture, suddenly a gale rose up from all directions. The sandstorm hid the sun and the old man lost his way and went into the desert. He had nothing at all to drink for three or four days and had no choice but to climb up onto the ox's back. The ox was walking a little and sniffing a little until it came to a place where it pawed randomly at the ground with its front hooves. Soon damp sand appeared. The old man immediately dug out a few handfuls, and water appeared. After the young Anqian Zanji heard this, he leapt about and danced with happiness, and went and told his fellow tribesmen about it at once. The people quickly drove all the tribe's pao cattle out, and finally they found water. Furthermore, the place where the water came out became larger and larger, and after a considerable period of time, green grass grew all around it, and it became the East and West Lakes in the Minghua District of today's Su'nan Yugur Autonomous County.

The Yugur people experienced many hardships and overcame great difficulties before finally arriving on the chevron-shaped fans at the foot of Qilianshan. They had arrived at the Yema Pingliang and the Kangyue Grasslands, where the Han nationality lived. From that time onwards, they looked for grazing for their livestock in that area.

Translated from Duan, Qi & Li eds., Gansu Tourist Guide (1982), China Tourism Publishing House, Beijing

传说,很久很久以前,裕固族在嘉峪关外游牧,后来因异族入侵,人们不得不扶老携幼,赶着牲畜,风餐露宿,进行大规模的东迁。部落里的老人因受不住长期的跋涉,相继死去,只有安千赞吉的阿爸安巴特尔活了下来,然而他也积劳成疾,举步艰难,安千赞吉就将阿爸装在土布拉里(毛制的一种口袋),驮在牦牛身上继续前进。但是,这种迁徙既无人指挥,又茫无目标,人们多么渴望能有一个人出来,带领大家朝着一个方向前进啊!

安千赞吉看到乡亲们受苦受难,自己又拿不出注意,整天愁眉苦脸,唉声叹气,老人看到儿子心事重重,便问:“你为什么不高兴,有什么心事告诉我吧!”安千赞吉说:“阿爸,我们部落离开故土已有很长时间了,大家又不知道向什么地方去,路途艰难,部落里的老人都死去了,牲畜也死去了一半,该怎么办呢?”老人说:木拉(指小男孩),你看太阳从东边升起,西边落下,我们只要迎着太阳升起的地方走,就一定能走到理想的地方,那里的人都穿着‘短腰子鞋’。”

安千赞吉把这些话告诉了乡亲们,大家都非常高兴,部落里充满了欢乐,唱着拉毛(裕固族民歌中的第一句),赶着牲畜朝着太阳升起的地方走去。

几千人的队伍,浩浩荡荡向东迁徙。不久,进入了浩瀚的大沙漠。在沙漠里人们艰难地走着。不几天,全部落带的水都用完了,不少人因缺少水而失去了生命。一天,安千赞吉捧着一盆养血让阿爸喝,并流着泪告诉父亲:“死神降临部落,因无水,人们都在等待死亡。”老人说:“孩子,让泡牛替我们找水。”儿子不解地说:“我们多少年轻力壮的小伙子,四处找水都没找到,泡牛能找到吗?”老人告诉了他这样一个往事:一次,老人赶着牛群放牧,突然狂风四起,飞沙蔽日,老人迷失方向,走进了沙漠,三、四天没喝到一口水,只好爬到泡牛背上行走。泡牛走一走,闻一闻,走到一个地方,前蹄乱刨,一会儿,出现了湿漉漉的沙,老人赶紧刨了几把,水出来了。年轻的安千赞吉听后,高兴地连奔带跳,赶紧把这件事告诉了乡亲,人们干出了部落里的所有泡牛终于找到了水,而且出水的地方越来越大,天长日久,四周长满了青草,成了今日赣南裕固族自治县明花区的东、南海子。

裕固族人民历尽千辛万苦,克服重重困难,终于来到了祁连山下的八字墩滩上,来到了汉族居住的野马坪梁和康乐草原。从此,就在这一带游牧。

段德义、齐宝玲、李映瑞 编《甘肃旅游指南》,中国旅游出版社,北京,1982

[Reference: the Han/Xiongnu-Turkic mixed race make-up of Gansu; origins of the Yugur people, in Chinese: http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/99674-样板戏”入教材,是谁之忧?-page24.html#819626

裕固族:裕固族约有八千四百余人。本民族自称“尧乎尔”、“西拉玉固尔”。元代称为“撒里畏吾”,明代成为“撒里畏兀儿”。一九五三年成立自治县时,改为裕固族,取富裕巩固之意。裕固族主要从事畜牧业兼营农业。语言一部分接近维吾尔语,通用汉语、汉文。 裕固族早先信“汗点格儿”(意为天皇),明、清以后,普遍信仰喇嘛教.

The Yugur Nationality: The Yugur nationality has approximately 8,400 people. This nationality calls itself "Yaohu'er" and "Xilayugu'er". In the Yuan Dynasty they were called "Saliweiwu", and in the Ming they were called "Saliweiwu'er". In 1953, when the autonomous counties were set up, the name was changed to Yugur (Yugu), with the meaning of stable and prosperous (fuyu gonggu). The Yugur are mainly engaged in mixed livestock farming and agriculture. Part of their language is close to the Uygur language, and they also commonly use the Han language and Han script. In the past, the Yugur believed in "Handian Ge'er" (meaning Sky Emperor), but after the Ming and Qing, belief in Lamaism became widespread.]

[Edited at 2009-04-04 09:25 GMT]


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Gansu: Yugur dress Apr 6, 2009

The Yugur Nationality

The Yugur dress has a distinctive style. The men wear a long unlined pulu gown and a soft felt hat or a hat that goes with formal dress. They wear high tubular boots, and a sheath knife at the waist. The women wear a long high-collared gown with a short unlined gown over the top. The collar, bottom of the sleeves and front of the bodice are all embroidered with silk thread designs. On their heads they wear bell-shaped red-tasselled hats, and head-ornaments. The head ornaments are usually decorated with pearls, coral, agates, seashells, and gold and silver. Silk thread is used to make all kinds of patterns and designs. There are two parts at the front and one at the back. The girls do not wear the head ornaments or the red-tasselled hat. Beginning from thirteen or fifteen years old (the odd-numbered years), they wear elegant headbands and a beautiful long bright gown tied with a green belt. When the women reach the age of marriage, they plait their hair into many small braids and then join them into three large braids, two at the front and one at the back. (Translated from Duan, Qi & Li eds., Gansu Tourist Guide (1982), China Tourism Publishing House, Beijing)

裕固族

裕固族的服饰别具风格,男人穿氆氇长衫,头戴细绒毡帽或礼帽,脚穿长筒靴,佩戴腰刀。妇女身穿高领长袍,外套短褂,衣领、袖口、襟边均绣有丝线图案,头戴喇叭型红缨帽,佩戴头面。头面一般用珍珠、珊瑚、玛瑙、海贝、金银等物缀成,并用丝线绣有各种花纹和图案,分钱两后一佩戴。姑娘不戴头面和红缨帽,从十三、十五单岁时开始,头戴装饰精美的头箍子,身穿鲜丽的长衫,系绿色腰带。女子到结婚年龄,把头发编成许多小辫,然后结成三条大辫,两条垂胸前,一条在背后。(段德义、齐宝玲、李映瑞 编,《甘肃旅游指南》,中国旅游出版社,北京,1982)

I am wondering how much of the Yugur dress is Turkish or Uygur, and why the women's headbands would be decorated with pearls, coral, agates and seashells. They live so far from the sea.

[Edited at 2009-04-08 07:48 GMT]


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Yugurology: Potanin, Roos et al.; medieval Yugur domains, script; modern-day songs Apr 27, 2009

1 Grigory Potanin, Yugurologist, 1884 - 1886 expedition:
While there, he was the first westerner to report on the East Yugur and West Yugur languages, making a glossary that was published in his book on the expedition, "The Tangut-Tibetan Borderlands of China and Central Mongolia" in 1893. [cite web | url = http://home.arcor.de/marcmarti/yugur/yugurol.htm | title = Yugurology] The book also contains a language glossary for the Salar language.
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/8898337

2 Marti Roos et al. site:
http://home.arcor.de/marcmarti/yugur/index.htm
http://home.arcor.de/marcmarti/yugur/colofon.htm
THE WESTERN YUGUR STEPPE
Colofon
http://home.arcor.de/marcmarti/yugur/history/history.htm
History of the Yugur
http://home.arcor.de/marcmarti/yugur/history/his01.htm
The Past of the Yugur
(compare the folklore transcriptions with the Duan et al. 'Tourist Guide' legend)

3 In Medieval times, the Yugurs and the Tanguts were neighbours. What was their relationship?:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/e-books/unpublished_manuscripts/historical_interaction/pt3/history_cultures_17.html#n60ffa0b8a2624c213
a. Uighur and Yugur Assistance in Establishing Tangut Buddhism:
After being conquered by the Tanguts, the Yugurs assisted them in their translation work, (including helping to translate Confucian-statecraft texts.)
b. The Yugur domains: link to Berzin's maps here (see: 'Approximately 850', 'Early 10C' maps):
http://www.proz.com/forum/ancient_languages/132554-tangut_khitan_juchen;_manchu.html#1103566
c. ... this Kingdom [Ganzhou, capital Zhangye], ... had forcibly been incorporated into the Tangut Kingdom, ... after a bloody war from 1028-1036 A.D. http://wapedia.mobi/en/Yugur

4 Yugur script: [Both Yugur languages are now unwritten, although] vertical Uyghur script was in use in some Yugur communities till end of 18th century. (Wapedia)

5 Yugur songs:
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/30418-唱歌吧sing_sing_a_song-page141.html#1112062
Beautiful Yugur Girl Loved by Everyone,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mUQFNT59U&feature=related
Yugur Ethnic Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCtUuLGgYzA&feature=related
blue wolf of Altay-Yugur song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69bIn4fQwTU&feature=related
my home-- yugur song

[Edited at 2009-04-28 00:02 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-04-28 00:04 GMT]


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