Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 17:48 Member (2007) English + ...
TOPIC STARTER
What do foreigners think about English-speakers and respect?
Oct 19, 2009
ViktoriaG wrote:
However, there is more to respect than the way you address a person. Some people can address you in a familiar manner and still be very respectful of you, and some people can talk to you formally while being utterly disrespectful of you. The notion of respect doesn't stop simply at picking a way to address others.
In a way, English is great because it doesn't make a distinction between familiar and formal. It makes communicating with people in a direct manner very easy. French, on the other hand, makes this very difficult at times.
I think it is very easy to mix up respect and politeness... Maybe this is where French cultures are wrong and English cultures are right. At least, with an Englishman, you know where you stand--and you are justified in being rude with them if it suits you!
I really feel that having these walls between people could cause problems - not always and not between all people, but it does give people a screen to hide behind if they wish to. It can create a "them and us" attitude where people are distanced from each other.
What I would really appreciate is the view of a foreigner living in an Anglo-Saxon country - how do you think English speakers deal with the question of respect? I find it difficult to analyse as it's an innate process.
@ Laurent. Nice definition of politeness, thanks. As you say, though, politeness is one thing; respect is another, more complicated, animal.
Of course, I may be asking the wrong people for advice on social behaviour Quite a number of you (myself included) have admitted to not being the world's best in this area, as you would expect from a bunch of independent home-workers who are happiest communicating with computers and dictionaries.
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 18:48 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian
Oct 19, 2009
Yes, like in French, the same form exists in my native language, that is the formal and respectful form of address as the second person plural ( vi, vous) for a single person. It does create translation problems when I have English as a source language, as this form of address does not exist in English. I would say Sir/Madam would be equivalents in English. How to choose "vi" or "ti" in my target native language when I have "you" in the English source will depend on the context, situation, tone or style.
As for my everyday interactions, I normal say vi ( vous) to work colleagues, my students, basically in all formal situations and with all new acquaintances. In informal environment with friends and family- it's almost always "ti ( tu)", even if it's new people. But yes, mother/father in law are often addressed with "vi". In our school system, it is common to say "ti" ( tu) to primary and secondary students, and "vi" ( vous) to college and University students, while all teachers are naturally addressed with vi ( vous). All children are naturally addressed with "ti/tu". All new people older than you will be addressed with "vi". The tendency is you will use "vi/vous" in all the situations where you want to create a virtual psychological distance/barrier from the person you speak to or when the situation indicates this distance ( formal, official and sometimes reserved tone).
As for the English! work environment I've been involved in.. I've always been asked to address my bosses with their first names, just like you suggested, but it was a bit tricky in the military. You won't quite address the military general or colonel with " hey you, Mr... ", it was always either by rank, or with "Sir". I'd say, in anglo-american culture (no vous and tu distinction), the higher the formality of workplace ( for example Government or other highest governmental instances) the less it will be natural to call people at high functions by their name or surname; instead, it will probably be either their title or the Sir/Madam address.
[Edited at 2009-10-19 20:58 GMT]
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Ulrike H Germany Local time: 18:48 English to German + ...
Some anecdotes...
Oct 19, 2009
In Germany, the only cases I can think of where one person would use the polite form, and the other the familiar form, would be an adult speaking to a child (as you wouldn't adress children with the polite form, usually). Of course there will be exceptions, like the one mentioned earlier in this discussion...
One thing that complicates things though is that some people seem to find it rude being adressed with the polite form. For example, I once had a lot of questions for the clerk in a store for outdoor-gear. He said he'll be happy to help me, but only if I stop addressing him with the polite form... There are many similar stories...
One anecdote I found interesting was, when my best friend introduced me to an old friend of hers - who happened to have been her history teacher when she went to school. Since my friend introduced her as a friend of hers, I automatically used the familiar form with her. Only towards the end of the conversation I realized that my friend is using the polite form with her, so afterwards I was somewhat worried I might have come across as disrespectful, but my friend thought it was alright - she said she uses the polite form, because she first knew this woman as her teacher, but since I met her as the friend of a friend my situation was different...
What I found interesting when staying in different South American countries was that there, the decision of what form to use seemed to be more influenced by the situation, the same people might sometimes use the polite and at other times the familiar form with each other - while in Germany it is usually either one or the other all the time with the same person - unless that status is officially changed...
Currently I am learning Japanese, and there of course the different levels of politeness are an issue from the early lessons onwards - and I am sometimes worried that I might come across as disrespectful once I speak Japanese well enough to communicate - because I am sure I will confuse them often...
But as others said, respect and politeness are of course two different issues - they are connected though. And of course trying to learn and use the rules of politeness of another culture does have to do with a respect for that culture, in my opinion...
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Marie-Hélène Hayles Italy Local time: 18:48 Member (2004) Italian to English + ...
Polite forms and foreignness
Oct 20, 2009
A couple of people have mentioned concerns about "getting it wrong" as a foreigner and using the familiar form where the other party would be expecting the polite form. In my experience (Britisher in Italy, where we have both singular and plural polite and familiar forms!) no one takes umbrage if a foreigner gets it wrong - they just assume you made a mistake because your command of the language is not perfect, rather than that you actually intended to be impolite. I'm sure it would be the same elsewhere.
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 17:48 Member (2007) English + ...
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politeness and respect are in the ear of the listener, perhaps?
Oct 20, 2009
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
no one takes umbrage if a foreigner gets it wrong - they just assume you made a mistake because your command of the language is not perfect, rather than that you actually intended to be impolite. I'm sure it would be the same elsewhere.
One thing that I find difficult here in France is that people have said to me that if I get it wrong, they make allowances for me - it's just a grammar mistake; but if someone of Arab-origin makes the same mistake, they find it offensive and disrespectful.
So, it's certainly impolite not to respect the conventions, but this can be ignored if there seems to be a good reason for it. However, if there's a lack of respect at the outset (as many locals here have for those of Arab origin, even though they don't know them from Adam), politeness merely serves to paper over the cracks of hostility.
Anyway, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about racial tensions here, nor even the conventions of politeness from language to language. I'd much prefer your views on how you define respect when you don't have all these "props" of formality vs informality - when it's just you and me.
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Respect = trying to do what the person you're talking to wants
Oct 20, 2009
As another Brit in France, even after 20 years I still get worried about tu and vous, and the most recent development is younger people beginning to "vouvoie" me which I don't much like because it means I must look to old to be tutoied spontaneously! Then I get surprised when British clients go straight into first-name mode on first contact, so I must have integrated to some extent...
I have come to realise that in fact "tu" doesn"t always equal great familiarity and "vous" doesn't always equal distance in relationships.
To answer your question about defining respect, I suppose I'd say it's addressing the person in the way he/she would like to be addressed, even if it sounds odd to foreign ears. A cultural rather than a linguistic question. This is why in the UK they're trying to get nurses to find out whether an elderly patient, say, would in fact prefer to be addressed as "Mrs Jones" than "Mary".
There are similar issues regarding how you should dress for certain occasions or even at work - when I first arrived in France, the French certainly dressed for the office in a way that would have been considered "sloppy" in London, while a formal 3-piece suit could have been interpreted as "snobby" in Paris. And as cultural differences may concern different social groups, regions, etc it's all a never-ending minefield!
[Edited at 2009-10-20 13:16 GMT]
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 18:48 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
"You" and "I"
Oct 20, 2009
So you want discuss the forms of address between "you and I" without taking cultural-linguistic-historical parameters into account? Sorry, can't work, because "you and I" are a part of the culture and largely defined by the culture.
As for foreigners, of course it won't be viewed as impoliteness, especially that I know this form of address doesn't exist in English ( this is for English native speakers)
The formal/polite plural forms exist in many countries/languages of continental Europe, which I believe has some historical background and stems from the social hierarchy and socio-cultural development of these countries. It would be interesting to find the precise explanation about this. I don't think it's the matter of "politeness" as much as it is the matter of embedded cultural norms and schemes of behavior.
In the UK, people are saying "thank you" and "please" much more often than here, for example. That's another difference. Or in other words: every culture has its ways to express and convey respect and politeness.
To Urlike: I hate when people ask me to address them as "ti" forcibly. It must be spontaneous or a result of my decision, not because someone asks me to. If I had wanted to address them as "ti" ( or "du" in German), I would have done it myself in the first place. Lack of logical thinking!
[Edited at 2009-10-20 10:29 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 17:48 Member (2007) English + ...
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No, not forms of address
Oct 20, 2009
Lingua 5B wrote:
So you want discuss the forms of address between "you and I" without taking cultural-linguistic-historical parameters into account?
Thanks for the post, but I really don't want to discuss forms of address here. Complicated as it can be in some languages, this is just a part of language learning - learn a language and at the same time learn the conventions that the native speakers of those languages use.
No, what I'm interested in is how people show respect (or disrespect) when these forms of address are in their simplest form: I, Sheila Wilson and you, whoever you are. The props of the polite forms of address etc have been taken away and you have to rely on other things to show that you respect the other person.
Imagine two naturists (nudists, if you prefer) - there, even the prop of dress has been taken away.
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 18:48 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
Nudists - same rules
Oct 20, 2009
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Imagine two naturists (nudists, if you prefer) - there, even the prop of dress has been taken away.
If we were nudists on the beach, and I didn't know these people, I'd absolutely address them the same way I'd address dressed people I didn't know- definitely and absolutely by the plural form... If that's what you are asking.
Just because we are naked, it doesn't automatically mean we are intimate or friends!
[Edited at 2009-10-20 10:49 GMT]
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Marie-Hélène Hayles Italy Local time: 18:48 Member (2004) Italian to English + ...
I think Sheila means *In English*
Oct 20, 2009
And assuming that I'm right, I'd say I'd show and perceive respect by not swearing, being more polite and considerate that I would be with people I know well, sticking to small talk and (in the case of nudists on a beach) most definitely not looking at their dangly bits
[Edited at 2009-10-20 11:06 GMT]
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Lingua 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 18:48 Member (2009) English to Croatian + ...
Oh in English
Oct 20, 2009
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
(in the case of nudists on a beach) most definitely not looking at their dangly bits
Ha ha...
It doesn't change anything.. if they were complete strangers, they would be strangers naked or dressed, and I would thus use the rules accordingly: in English, French or my native language.
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 11:48 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Takes years
Oct 20, 2009
When I first came to the US, the "old" ones were telling me that I will need "10 years to figure out where the sun is in the sky"...
I started hanging out with locals only, I changed four states in total, got engaged twice and married once, had a child, worked in US companies (no immigrants - high level finance), and I managed to "adjust" in about 7 years, even though I was considered the most "Americanized" when I was in Greece...
My advantage was that I am a child of immigrants (Germany) myself.
Takes time, and a lot of exposure. Language and manners is only a very small part of it. The biggest part is the "emotional response". We say people are the same, but they' re not. They respond differently and local cultures have a lot to do with it.
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 17:48 Member (2007) English + ...
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You've got my drift, Marie-Hélène
Oct 20, 2009
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
And assuming that I'm right, I'd say I'd show and perceive respect by not swearing, being more polite and considerate that I would be with people I know well, sticking to small talk and (in the case of nudists on a beach) most definitely not looking at their dangly bits
[Edited at 2009-10-20 11:06 GMT]
Thanks, Marie-Hélène, that's just what I was thinking of. Showing respect in your manner and approach to them, rather than in the choice of words you use, regardless of which language you are using - it's just that English imposes so little on you in the form of structures for politeness.
I chose naturists because our mode of dress says so much about us and can make us appear rich, successful, sophisticated or hard-up, a failure, gauche - even when the opposite is true. Naturists have nothing to hide and, indeed, nowhere to hide it. Interestingly, the "rule" in France is that naturists always use the informal version of you (tu) - even to a complete stranger, as long as they, too, are naturists. Why should that be? Because there are no preconceived ideas of which one is "better"? Or perhaps it's because, by definition, naturists are people who are "happy in their skins" (to coin a phrase that's used in French and Dutch - I'm not sure about English, but I'm sure it's self-explanatory, although it's not literal, so not restricted to naturists).
[Edited at 2009-10-20 16:11 GMT]
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Marie-Hélène Hayles Italy Local time: 18:48 Member (2004) Italian to English + ...
It's because...
Oct 20, 2009
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Interestingly, the "rule" in France is that naturists always use the informal version of you (tu) - even to a complete stranger, as long as they, too, are naturists. Why should that be? Because there are no preconceived ideas of which one is "better"? Or perhaps it's because, by definition, naturists are people who are "happy in their skins"
I'd say it's because chatting away with someone when you're both stark b*****k naked is about as informal as you can get anyway! Sticking to a more formal form of address would strike me as absurd.
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Ulrike H Germany Local time: 18:48 English to German + ...
culture...
Oct 20, 2009
To Urlike: I hate when people ask me to address them as "ti" forcibly. It must be spontaneous or a result of my decision, not because someone asks me to. If I had wanted to address them as "ti" ( or "du" in German), I would have done it myself in the first place. Lack of logical thinking!
I think it depends. In the case of the shop clerk I agree, I am not there to become friends, so I don't see why he has a problem with him addressing him politely (other than that it conflicts with his self-image of an alternative, relaxed person), but when someone who could be considered higher in hierarchy "offers" me to use the familiar form I guess that is the only way to do it, because even if I wanted to, I couldn't use it with them unless they offer it. Though for example when my choir teacher did so, I was already so used to addressing him politely that I just couldn't get used to the familiar form and for quite a while avoided addressing him altogether...
Interestingly, the "rule" in France is that naturists always use the informal version of you (tu) - even to a complete stranger, as long as they, too, are naturists. Why should that be? Because there are no preconceived ideas of which one is "better"? Or perhaps it's because, by definition, naturists are people who are "happy in their skins"
I would think it has to do with conventions inside a specific "scene" - see also the above example of the guy in the outdoor store. Or if I go to a pub where mainly punks hang out, it would never occur to me to use the polite form.
As for respect in general - I would guess all the rules about how to act politely and show respect are as much cultural convention as the use of polite language. In some countries it might be bowing, opening doors, offering seats, not touching someone's head, etc. In the end, I agree that showing respect has a lot to do with guessing (or knowing) how the other person wants to be treated - and that of course is also influenced by that person's culture...
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Quite a number of you (myself included) have admitted to not being the world's best in this area, as you would expect from a bunch of independent home-workers who are happiest communicating with computers and dictionaries.
, it was always either by rank, or with "Sir". I'd say, in anglo-american culture (no vous and tu distinction), the higher the formality of workplace ( for example Government or other highest governmental instances) the less it will be natural to call people at high functions by their name or surname; instead, it will probably be either their title or the Sir/Madam address.
