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Questions: s-genitive vs of-genitive; compound words
Thread poster: Peter Zhuang
Oliver Walter
Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:25
German to English
+ ...
Baking ovens and capacitors Aug 21, 2014

Tina Vonhof wrote:
Why baking oven? What else would you do in an oven?
That was exactly my reaction. It's probably a literal translation from German Backofen.

All the answers given so far have, to my mind, some useful content. My most consistent reaction is, however, that it always depends on the context, and sometimes there is more than one "best" answer.

Examples, regarding the tale of the motherboard and the capacitor. The following are all good native English examples:
  1. What are the capacitors on the motherboard for? [from https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/]
  2. How To: Replacing bad capacitors on a motherboard [in YouTube]
  3. Quick Motherboard Capacitor Replacement [also YouTube]
  4. they are getting out of the motherboard capacitor business [in www.thecapking.com]
  5. replacing the capacitor of a motherboard [from http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=26236]

Oliver


 
Richard Purdom
Richard Purdom  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 20:25
Dutch to English
+ ...
context context context Aug 21, 2014

OK, this capacitor thing all boils down to its importance.

The engine in a car, for example, is fundamental;

'The car's engine.'

The headlining isn't;

'The headlining of the car.'

So, I doubt if a capacitor is the first thing that springs to mind when dealing with a motherboard, so I would use
'The capacitor on the motherboard', and forget the possessive altogether.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 04:25
Chinese to English
Which capacitor? Aug 21, 2014

Richard Purdom wrote:

So, I doubt if a capacitor is the first thing that springs to mind when dealing with a motherboard, so I would use
'The capacitor on the motherboard', and forget the possessive altogether.

This capacitor question has been bothering me as well. Capacitor of the motherboard seems wrong to me in almost all contexts, and I think I've figured out why. You would expect there to be more than one capacitor on a motherboard, so it can't be "the capacitor." But if you use "a capacitor", then you get the pattern "an X of", which invites "an X of mine/his/the motherboard's?" I think that's at least part of why "of" seems so wrong to me in this phrase.


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 05:25
Japanese to English
+ ...
... Aug 21, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Richard Purdom wrote:

So, I doubt if a capacitor is the first thing that springs to mind when dealing with a motherboard, so I would use
'The capacitor on the motherboard', and forget the possessive altogether.

This capacitor question has been bothering me as well. Capacitor of the motherboard seems wrong to me in almost all contexts, and I think I've figured out why. You would expect there to be more than one capacitor on a motherboard, so it can't be "the capacitor." But if you use "a capacitor", then you get the pattern "an X of", which invites "an X of mine/his/the motherboard's?" I think that's at least part of why "of" seems so wrong to me in this phrase.


I don't see how motherboard capacitor is any more unusual than guitar string.


A guitar has multiple strings. A motherboard has multiple capacitors.

If you are referencing a specific capacitor, you would say "the C16 capacitor" or whatever name the spec sheet gives to it. In the same way, you can say the "the low E string" to specify a particular string on a guitar.

If you are referencing any one of several capacitors that reside on the motherboard, you would say "a motherboard capacitor."


But like someone said earlier, there is no need to repeat the "motherboard" part over and over if context makes it obvious.


I think this is being made much more complicated than it needs to be...


 
Peter Zhuang
Peter Zhuang  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:25
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Baking oven, long compound words and suggestions Aug 21, 2014

Oliver Walter wrote:

Tina Vonhof wrote:
Why baking oven? What else would you do in an oven?
That was exactly my reaction. It's probably a literal translation from German Backofen.



Unfortunately, it isn't a literal translation of "Backofen". I came up with the term in order to highlight the problem that I am having with long compound words, i.e. it is fictive.

What other functions do ovens have besides baking? Drying, heating and "causing polarized molecules in food to rotate"
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven)

Eric: I can't explain exactly why "baking oven heating element" grates, but I will try.

Aesthetically, it sounds too long and clumsy. In the German language, it is usual to koppeln words together, forming monstrosities like Meinungsäußerungsfreiheit. Translated literally, it sounds extremely unusual - opinion expression freedom (instead of freedom of opinion and expression).

Pieces of information are also lost; i.e. what is the relationship between this "heating element" and the "baking oven"? Is it in, under, over, on, with or enclosing the oven? I think Phil made a wonderful point, inserting a preposition in between does make the word clot sound better.

Thank you once again for all the helpful inputs.

How does these (fictitious) sentences sound:
In 1923, Qwerty first began manufacturing heating elements for baking oven. Qwerty products are renowned for their reliability and efficiency.

Thank you!


 
Oliver Walter
Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:25
German to English
+ ...
Those 2 sentences Aug 21, 2014

Peter Zhuang wrote:
How does these (fictitious) sentences sound:
In 1923, Qwerty first began manufacturing heating elements for baking oven.
Qwerty products are renowned for their reliability and efficiency.
Thank you!

Correct English: "How do these (fictitious) sentences sound:" Putting a verb in the wrong number (i.e. singular or plural) is not an uncommon mistake among English native speakers, but not permitted for translators!

"In 1923, Qwerty first began manufacturing heating elements for baking oven." That strkes me as rather unnatural, in addition to containing another common error to which I might sarcastically respond: "If they first began in 1923, when did they subsequently begin?" (i.e. the use of "first" implies that there was also a second.)

If the sentence is intended to say what happened in 1923, I would write: "In 1923, Qwerty began manufacturing heating elements for ovens." (Not baking ovens since (a) it's 1923, and (b) the mention of heating elements also makes it clear that they are not microwave ovens.)
If it is intended to say something about the history of Qwerty, probably having already mentioned some of its other products prior to 1923, I would write: "Qwerty began manufacturing heating elements for ovens in 1923."
The other sentence "Qwerty ... efficiency." is fine.
Oliver


 
Tony M
Tony M
France
Local time: 21:25
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Use noun as qualifier rather than possessive Sep 8, 2014

It has been mentioned before above, but I think it deserves to be given a little more prominence on its own.

I frequently encounter this problem in FR, where there is no option to use 'de', which means you can sometimes get a whole string of nouns linked by multiple 'de', and it can be quite a nightmare sorting them out.

Using the device available in EN but not in some other languages of using one noun like an adjective to qualify another noun is often a good solutiuon
... See more
It has been mentioned before above, but I think it deserves to be given a little more prominence on its own.

I frequently encounter this problem in FR, where there is no option to use 'de', which means you can sometimes get a whole string of nouns linked by multiple 'de', and it can be quite a nightmare sorting them out.

Using the device available in EN but not in some other languages of using one noun like an adjective to qualify another noun is often a good solutiuon, as in the "QWERTY products" example above (by the way, it's really hard typing 'qwerty' on an 'azerty' keyboard!)

'drying oven heating elements' sounds perfectly fine to me, certainly better than any of the other alternatives. In other constructions, there are other possibilities:
"The drying oven's heating element had gone, but its fan was working OK"
"The heating element in the drying oven had gone, but the one in the baking oven was OK"

Note I have used 'drying oven' as my example, since as others have said, an 'oven' is for baking by default, unless specifically otherwise specified. Note that if it were an oven for baking say bread in a bakery, we'd likely call it a 'bakery oven'.

In instances where a noun qualifier really doesn't work, in most situations where a direct, literal possessive is not involved, there are other prepositions that can be used, as one of our contributors above pointed out.
Collapse


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 21:25
English to Polish
+ ...
... Sep 10, 2014

Peter Zhuang wrote:

1. Qwerty's products
2. Products of Qwerty


Very subjective, and a lot depends on the context. Normally, you should prefer the Saxon genitive for living thing and Norman for inanimate objects. Collective entities and institutions are somewhat tricky, i.e. more subjective and more context-sensitive.

Native speakers tend to make more use of the Saxon genitive and compound nouns than non-native speakers. However, non-native speakers will also use the Saxon genitive where a native speaker would use the genitive syntax or form a compound noun instead. Still, different native speakers will use different syntaxm and the quality of the outcome will be judged differently by different native speakers. Again, this is largely a matter of style and very subjective.

In the example you cite, you'd normally avoid a naked 'products of Qwerty' in a headline or some other place of high exposure and little context, but in specific situations — typically as part of a long sentence — the Norman genitive (of …) would be preferable, e.g. 'among the many products of Qwerty', which is not to say that 'among Qwerty's many products' would never work. Again, a lot depends on individual preference and the style you want to use, the tone you want to achieve.

Do note, though, that these days a a compound noun like 'Qwerty products' would probably be used most of the time anyway instead of the genitive that most non-native speakers would tend to use.

1. The computer motherboard capacitor


To describe a product category perhaps (in which case without the definite article if placed in a headline etc.) or at the beginning of a sentence. ('The computer motherboard capacitor we are offering (...).')

2. The Capacitor of a computer motherboard


More likely to occur in a sentence, but in any case the genitive syntax would require a very specific context in order to sound natural. ('The capacitor of a computer motherboard is a (...).')

3. The Capacitor on a computer motherboard


That'd be the most natural way of expression in something like a support request or a tech forum post offering advice to a newbie in need of assistance.

('A capacitor on my mobo died, and I had to replace it.' 'Capacitors on your motherboard can swell in high ambient temperatures, in which case you just need to wait a couple of days and everything will get back to normal.')


 
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Questions: s-genitive vs of-genitive; compound words






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