| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What's the difference? (if any) Thread poster: Aurora Humarán (X)
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Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:29
German to English
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| gerund/participle | Sep 12, 2006 |
What one is looking at here is the gradual shift from the use of a gerund to a purely verbal participle in a finite verb phrase.
"I hate John's eating snails" is more verbal than "I hate John's eating of snails", but they could both be used in the same context to mean the same thing..
Note one can have "the eating of snails" but not "the eating snails". "The eating of snails" is a gerund, while "eating snails" is much more the participle use of "eating".
T... See more What one is looking at here is the gradual shift from the use of a gerund to a purely verbal participle in a finite verb phrase.
"I hate John's eating snails" is more verbal than "I hate John's eating of snails", but they could both be used in the same context to mean the same thing..
Note one can have "the eating of snails" but not "the eating snails". "The eating of snails" is a gerund, while "eating snails" is much more the participle use of "eating".
The difference between "I hate John's eating snails" and "I hate John eating snails" is usually taken to be one between literary (or formal) usage and colloquial usage.
Reference: "A University Grammar of English" (Sections 11.18, 13.23) Quirk and Greenbaum
[Edited at 2006-09-12 13:53] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's 2 2-dimensional | Sep 12, 2006 |
The problem is that they are only written language, completely context free. While it may be useful to reduce the number of variables in order to get at some particular aspect, in this case it is the way that they are spoken which would carry most of the semantic difference. As an example, how much of the feedback we are giving you is conditioned by the fact that the sentences visually seem to simulate a condition where John is eating snails now, when in fact there is no particular evidence that... See more The problem is that they are only written language, completely context free. While it may be useful to reduce the number of variables in order to get at some particular aspect, in this case it is the way that they are spoken which would carry most of the semantic difference. As an example, how much of the feedback we are giving you is conditioned by the fact that the sentences visually seem to simulate a condition where John is eating snails now, when in fact there is no particular evidence that he is. Does it, in fact, visually resemble another type of sentence construction and does this influence the perception?
To me, for example, the first has nothing to do with the second because the first is obviously (!) about edible snails as opposed to non-edible snails. However, if I was listening to the 2 sentences my perception may well be different.
Anyway, you were probably aware of that, but I thought that since so many people had wondered off the beaten track that I would go too
So, I think the first is about edible snails, and the second is about the eating of snails.
Trevor ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I totally... | Sep 12, 2006 |
agree with Olivia on this one.
| | | | | I'm with Heinrich | Sep 12, 2006 |
"I hate John's eating snails" logically means "I hate John's snails that eat/that are eating".
i.e. "eating" is an adjective describing the snails, not what John's doing to them.
As Heinrich says, another example - such as "I hate George's kicking horses" - would (in my humble opinion) have led far more people to interpret the sentence in this way.
The second ("I hate John's eating of snails") sounds wrong to me. I'd say, as Jack suggests, "I hate John ea... See more "I hate John's eating snails" logically means "I hate John's snails that eat/that are eating".
i.e. "eating" is an adjective describing the snails, not what John's doing to them.
As Heinrich says, another example - such as "I hate George's kicking horses" - would (in my humble opinion) have led far more people to interpret the sentence in this way.
The second ("I hate John's eating of snails") sounds wrong to me. I'd say, as Jack suggests, "I hate John eating snails". Or even "I hate it that John eats snails".
[Edited at 2006-09-12 09:27] ▲ Collapse
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I hate John's eating snails.
I hate John's eating of snails.
The first one, change "eating" to "singing" and you can see a possible interpretation.
just a wild guess...
| | | | James Calder 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:29
Spanish to English
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| There is a difference, or maybe there isn't. | Sep 12, 2006 |
a) "I hate John's eating snails" = I don't like John eating snails at all. I wish he wouldn't do it.
You could argue that "eating" here is an adjective but that would make for a pretty nonsensical sentence.
As a native speaker, I prefer the construction "I hate John eating snails".
b) "I hate John's eating of snails". As far as I'm concerned, this sentence has two possible inferences:
1. "I dislike the way John eats snails. He slurps so much."
2. "I don't li... See more a) "I hate John's eating snails" = I don't like John eating snails at all. I wish he wouldn't do it.
You could argue that "eating" here is an adjective but that would make for a pretty nonsensical sentence.
As a native speaker, I prefer the construction "I hate John eating snails".
b) "I hate John's eating of snails". As far as I'm concerned, this sentence has two possible inferences:
1. "I dislike the way John eats snails. He slurps so much."
2. "I don't like John eating snails at all. There are so many other things he could eat instead."
To my mind, the use of "of" introduces a degree of ambiguity. If someone said this to me, I would ask them to clarify it.
I haven't read the thread so my apologies to anyone if I've repeated what they've already said.
Regards
James
[Editado a las 2006-09-12 12:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Agree with Jack, Spencer, Olivia, Ruth, Lesley, Rita, Anna... | Sep 12, 2006 |
As a description of an activity, the phrases "eating snails" and "eating of snails" are semantically identical to me. The question of whether such a sentence might plausibly be encountered in standard idiomatic English is a different question.
Also, I would venture to say that no native speaker of English would understand "John's eating snails" as "John's snails that eat/are eating," as in "John's non-eating snails are fine, it's those pesky eating ones I can't stand." (!)
| | | | James Calder
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:29
Spanish to English
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| Re "John's eating of snails" | Sep 12, 2006 |
To underline my assertion that the sentence "I hate John's eating of snails" is ambiguous, consider the sentence below:
"I dislike John's watching of gory horror films."
What the speaker dislikes here is the fact John watches gory horror films at all, not the way in which he watches them. Here there can be no ambiguity. Therefore, in the sentence "I hate John's eating of snails" we cannot be entirely certain whether the speaker is objecting to the way he eats the snails or the... See more To underline my assertion that the sentence "I hate John's eating of snails" is ambiguous, consider the sentence below:
"I dislike John's watching of gory horror films."
What the speaker dislikes here is the fact John watches gory horror films at all, not the way in which he watches them. Here there can be no ambiguity. Therefore, in the sentence "I hate John's eating of snails" we cannot be entirely certain whether the speaker is objecting to the way he eats the snails or the fact that he eats them. In my view at least there is an ambiguity about it.
The clumsiness of the construction invites ambiguity. Were the speaker to say "I dislike John watching gory horror films/eating snails", the meaning would be perfectly clear.
As for me, I quite like Aurora's asking of tricky grammatical questions.
Regards
James
[Editado a las 2006-09-12 14:52] ▲ Collapse
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Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 04:29
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | You all rock! | Sep 12, 2006 |
James Calder wrote:
As for me, I quite like Aurora's asking of tricky grammatical questions.
James
You have no idea how much you are all helping me. I studied English Grammar when I was at the Uni studying Translation circa 1979 (ouch!) and it was just Quirk and Au.
Having the possibility to discuss these things with real speakers has me in ecstasy (I mean it!)
I am now extremely busy with the analysis of 10 sentences that deal with the English subjunctive (a pain in the Quirk for Spanish speakers), so I have no much time to comment on your contributions. If I survive your bare infinites, modals et alii , I will share with you the snails, I mean..., the analysis of the two sentences we did in class last Saturday.
Au
[Edited at 2006-09-12 15:10]
| | | | craigs
Local time: 03:29
English to Portuguese
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| Respectfully disagree | Sep 12, 2006 |
Spencer Allman wrote:
Neither of these sentences has any clear meaning, as they are purely fabricated. I cannot imagine any native English speaker saying either.
We would either say: I hate the fact that he eats snails
or
I hate John eating snails first thing in the morning, etc.
Theortetically, however, both your sentences have the same meaning, except that the latter is archaic or literary or slangy/colloquial, and generally not preferred.
It may depend on one's subculture or geographical region. Neither sentence sounds completely odd to me, though I admit that the average person would not phrase it this way in common conversation.
| | | | | Background info | Sep 12, 2006 |
Determiners and possessives with ing-forms
We can often use determiners (for example the, my, this) with ing-forms.
the opening of Parliament
I don't mind your going without me.
Does my smoking annoy you?
I hate all this useless arguing.
Possessive 's forms are also possible:
John's going to sleep during the wedding was rather embarrassing.
She was angry at Lina's trying to lie to her.
Note that possessives and pronouns are not used b... See more Determiners and possessives with ing-forms
We can often use determiners (for example the, my, this) with ing-forms.
the opening of Parliament
I don't mind your going without me.
Does my smoking annoy you?
I hate all this useless arguing.
Possessive 's forms are also possible:
John's going to sleep during the wedding was rather embarrassing.
She was angry at Lina's trying to lie to her.
Note that possessives and pronouns are not used before –ing forms if it is already clear who is being talked about.
Thank you for waiting. (NOT Thank you for your waiting).
When an –ing form is used with an article, it cannot usually have a direct object. Instead, we can use an of-structure.
the smoking of cigarettes (NOT the smoking cigarettes)
Michael Swan, Practical English Usage
The OED takes some pains to note that this original noun-forming use of this suffix was limited throughout the Old English period to nouns of action, and that the use of this suffix to create true gerund forms of any and all verbs did not appear until the early Middle English period in the middle of the 14th Century. It was thus, only beginning in the mid 1300s, that the gerund came into existence (i.e., an inflected form that, like a noun, retains the possibility of a possessive DETERMINER -- Her racing surprised us --, but, like a verb, allows a full array of clause complements -- Her racing sports cars surprised us).
Interestingly, a set of sentences given toward the end of the entry for –ing1, require (within the systemic linguistic perspective) an additional functional position for -ing clauses besides the three I describes above (HEAD or POST MODIFIER in a noun phrase, or CLAUSE COMPLEMENT) For example, take a look at a sentence beginning eight lines from the end of section two of the entry for –ing1: But who ever heard of them eating an owl? (It’s about two-thirds of the way from the top of the left panel on the back of the handout.) The OED treats such sentences as implied possessives (But who ever heard of their eating an owl), even while acknowledging that constructions such as these date back to 1600 and are now quite common in spoken English.
(Classical transformational grammar, of course, treated both the pronoun version and the possessive article version of such sentences as deep structure subjects that have undergone one of the versions of what was once called the nominalization transformation.) In the sentence But who ever heard of them eating an owl? I analyze the –ing participle clause as standing in apposition to the pronoun, and sharing with it the functional position of OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION. Such a construction can also occur in sentences such as I don’t like them eating an owl. In this case the pronoun them functions as DIRECT OBJECT, and the –ing participle clause eating an owl functions as OBJECT COMPLEMENT. Again, the relevant point is that there are no clause-internal (i.e., formal) distinctions between so-called “gerunds” and “present participles”; all differences can be explained in terms of the functional position of the clause within which the –ing form appears. And so, I think it is reasonable to conclude that “gerunds” and “present participles” are indeed “monosyntactic,” -- that both can be classed together as –ing participles.
http://web.odu.edu/al/jpbroder/2000d[ingforms].doc ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Eating snails | Sep 12, 2006 |
The way I see it if this is a VERY tricky questions (could be just a grammar matter)...
I hate John´s eating snails
I hate the eating snails (a species of snails that feed on other snails) that belong to John
I hate John´s eating of snails
I have the way John eats snails
An article about these weird eating snails:
In Florida, there are three native and two introduced species of snails belonging to five different fam... See more The way I see it if this is a VERY tricky questions (could be just a grammar matter)...
I hate John´s eating snails
I hate the eating snails (a species of snails that feed on other snails) that belong to John
I hate John´s eating of snails
I have the way John eats snails
An article about these weird eating snails:
In Florida, there are three native and two introduced species of snails belonging to five different families known to feed on other snails. In addition, several introduced species of the Subulinidae are considered carnivorous, but little is known of their biology and identification is difficult. The best known of the Florida predator snails is the rosy predator snail, Euglandina rosea (Ferussac), which was exported to Hawaii and other areas (Mead 1961) in vain attempts to control the giant african snail (Achatina fulica Bowdich). A Mediterranean snail, the decollate snail, Rumina decollata (Linnaeus), is much heralded today (Fisher et al. 1980) in California as an effective biological control agent of the brown garden snail. Relatively little is known of the other three species of snail-eating snails, two of which are less than 10 mm long. All of these Florida predaceous snails are easy to identify and the following account summarizes what is known of their distributions, identification and habits. ▲ Collapse
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Alicia Casal
Argentina
Local time: 04:29
English to Spanish
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| Contrastive Analysis | Sep 12, 2006 |
It s the way to get the meaning.
But i do understand Au s Point.
| | | | | Another way to interpret | Sep 12, 2006 |
The first sentence could also mean:
I hate John's (John’s house) eating snails.
In other words, I hate John’s house, when I am in the process of eating snails. Maybe because snails remind me of the day when I slipped on a snail and broke my leg in John’s house.
This is a joke.
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 00:29
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| A question of grammar | Sep 12, 2006 |
Kevin Kelly wrote:
Also, I would venture to say that no native speaker of English would understand "John's eating snails" as "John's snails that eat/are eating," as in "John's non-eating snails are fine, it's those pesky eating ones I can't stand." (!)
Nevertheless, the grammar of English allows this interpretation. Whether or not a native English speaker would interpret the sentence this way is heavily dependent on context.
[Edited at 2006-09-13 06:47]
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