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Can someone be a native speaker of more than one language?
Thread poster: Spring City (X)
Nizamettin Yigit
Nizamettin Yigit  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 02:28
Dutch to Turkish
+ ...
Just to make it more complicated May 29, 2007

Hi,

We have recently visited an international school K-12 or 13 in Rotterdam for our 4 years old girl.

In this school 21 nation and probably min 21 languages are represented. And most of the families are multi-cultural or multilingual. So at home more than one language is spoken.
More than one language is read daily.

These kids have American and British teachers. Dutch is given as one of the languages and the language of the environment but Dutch may
... See more
Hi,

We have recently visited an international school K-12 or 13 in Rotterdam for our 4 years old girl.

In this school 21 nation and probably min 21 languages are represented. And most of the families are multi-cultural or multilingual. So at home more than one language is spoken.
More than one language is read daily.

These kids have American and British teachers. Dutch is given as one of the languages and the language of the environment but Dutch may not be spoken, watched at tv or read in daily paper or magazines that they receive in their homes.

Just one example:
- Parents are Moroccon and Turkish (both are not native of Dutch and English) are educated.
- They watch American TVs daily.
- kids are student of above mentioned school.
- Kids may communicate in Turkish and Arabicbut can not write good enough and can not fully understand idioms etc.

The question:
what is the native language of kids of this family?

And as a last word, it is very difficult to limit the native language and native language level to a dictionary definition.

Regards,

Nizam

[Edited at 2007-05-29 00:36]
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Heidi C
Heidi C  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:28
English to Spanish
+ ...
Native speaker of two languages not the same as completely bilingual! May 29, 2007

I completely agree with Henry's comments:

Henry Hinds wrote:

Being a native speaker of more than one language is something that has to be made. You are not merely born with it or gain it from your environment, you must strive for it actively in your entire experience.

Since the use of two languages is rarely well-balanced, such as the common situation where one language is used at home and another in school, then one must make up for such deficiencies with one's own efforts.


You can be born and raised in two (or more languages), and you will have native fluency in both: you can communicate exactly the same in either language, you will dream in either language...

And that is the start for the wiring in your brain.

But your fluency and proficiency cannot be limited to what language you heard first or the most!

There are many people who are monolingual, and of course there is no question regarding what is their native language. BUT: their level of proficiency is conversational. Their native language is the language they have heard and communicated in since they were born.

Example: my mother was raised in a home of immigrants in Mexico. Both her parents spoke to her in Yiddish, so that was her native language. That was the language they spoke at home. Then she went out to school and to the "world". Though she had Yiddish language and literature classes, her language of communication and her education was in Spanish. And that is the language she speaks. So: what is her native language?


So, why can't a person grow up hearing and communicating in more than one language? The "other" language(s) are never studied: they are aquired just as the "first" language and are used for communication in the same way. AND they are also conversational.

Obviously, these languages were acquired at the language acquisition stage (started at birth, developed before the age of 5)

THEN comes the next step: education. You obtain the proficiency and skills in each language through education.

In order to have native proficiency in more than one language, first you need to have native proficiency in EACH ONE of the languages. And that is something not everyone has! Without educaction, even a native speaker won't have decent language skills.


Being just an ordinary "bilingual" is one thing, but being a truly balanced bilingual is quite another. ...

... out of a large "bilingual" population all we have is a handful of people who have true, balanced competency in both languages which is only accomplished though intense study, practice and observation, not only in school but on the street, in homes, by traveling, through the media and in all situations that can possibly exist.


I think there is a difference between being "native" in two languages and being bilingual. Bilingual does not imply you acquired the second language naturally as the first. You can be perfectly bilingual without one (or any) of the languages being your native one. And you can be native in several languages, yet your proficiecy is lower than that of someone who learned the language.

Another example: I know of people who have tested higher in English than in Spanish in two language proficiency tests, when Spanish is their native language...


So,
When speaking here about "native language", I would assume we are looking at it within our specific context.

We are in a professional translator's site. One assumes that people here are highly proficient in the tool of their trade: LANGUAGE. And it is clear that when we speak of native proficiency, we understand that we are speaking of educated language skills (not the language of anyone walking in the street, in any language).

I believe that people who claim in a professional translator's site to be native in a language, must be aware that their language skills and proficiency refer to those of a highly educated native speaker. And this is accoplished through education.

What I understand when you claim you have more than one native language, is that you acquired all those languages at a very early age instead of learning them somewhere. And your language skills and proficiency in those languages are also those of a highly educated native speaker. Which means you had the necessary education to achieve this level of proficiency.

Maybe I'm naive...

(of course, at the end it really comes down to people proving themselves in their answers... that is really when I go and check what the N's say and how many N's are there.)






[Edited at 2007-05-29 04:25]


 
Marcelo Silveyra
Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 18:28
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Pretty close... May 29, 2007

Heidi C wrote:

There are many people who are monolingual, and of course there is no question regarding what is their native language. BUT: their level of proficiency is conversational. Their native language is the language they have heard and communicated in since they were born.

In order to have native proficiency in more than one language, first you need to have native proficiency in EACH ONE of the languages. And that is something not everyone has! Without educaction, even a native speaker won't have decent language skills.


I agree with most of what you said, Heidi, save for one thing (and since it's a terminology thing, it doesn't really matter that much): "native proficiency" has nothing to do with education or with how extended one's knowledge of a particular language is. It simply refers to the intuition acquired during very early childhood. Even if I can read Kant in German and many Germans can't, they have "native proficiency," while I do not. Native proficiency is, in fact, simply conversational in most cases and has nothing to do with how decent (or indecent - couldn't avoid the pun!) the native's language skills are. That's simply "language proficiency."

As far as what people on ProZ think, I believe that there are all kinds of opinions out there...and a lot of them aren't very ethical!


 
Henry Hinds
Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:28
English to Spanish
+ ...
In memoriam
Must Agree May 29, 2007

I must agree with Heidi (well, she agrees with me!), and she carries the point much farther down the road than I did. There are also some very interesting experiences from many others. One point involves languages that are not "equal" in status, that is they are used only by small communities of people who often speak other "dominant" languages.

True, balanced bilingualism is surely only possible with "big" languages such as English and Spanish and others in which one can gain a ful
... See more
I must agree with Heidi (well, she agrees with me!), and she carries the point much farther down the road than I did. There are also some very interesting experiences from many others. One point involves languages that are not "equal" in status, that is they are used only by small communities of people who often speak other "dominant" languages.

True, balanced bilingualism is surely only possible with "big" languages such as English and Spanish and others in which one can gain a full range of educational opportunities.

I have known other cases of people who have lost, then regained their "native" language; for instance Spanish-speakers placed in an all-English environment at a certain point in childhood who completely forgot Spanish, then relearned it as adults. They may become proficient, but it is still like a foreign language to them.

I have raised a bilingual daughter, but in the typical "Spanish at home, English at school" manner because the schools refuse to recognize the value of Spanish and reject it. Since she got a bit more of the "good stuff" at home than most kids did, her Spanish is also better than that of her peers.

Now just try to get a job on the border if you are an English monolingual!

In any case, what I think is most important in our job is to take out all the equivalent "compartments" in each of our languages and find out which have more and which less, then start filling those that need more content.

All of that is done through the learning process.
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Heidi C
Heidi C  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:28
English to Spanish
+ ...
What is the significance of "native speaker" in the context of a site for language professionals? May 29, 2007


I agree with most of what you said, Heidi, save for one thing (and since it's a terminology thing, it doesn't really matter that much): "native proficiency" has nothing to do with education or with how extended one's knowledge of a particular language is. It simply refers to the intuition acquired during very early childhood.
... Native proficiency is, in fact, simply conversational in most cases and has nothing to do with how decent (or indecent - couldn't avoid the pun!) the native's language skills are. That's simply "language proficiency."


Marcelo:
I truly agree with you that IN GENERAL TERMS, being native has nothing to do with education and more to do with intuition.

What makes me stress the importance of native proficiency (or maybe it could be a new category?) is the fact that we are language professionals!

There has to be a difference when we are talking in the context of a professional language forum. As a translator, being a native speaker gives you the advantage of this intuition; but without the education, being native could be a disadvantage because of all the mistakes you might have learned inadvertently!!

That is why in this context I would think there is no point in claiming you are a native speaker of a language if you do not excell in that language! If your proficiency in your native language is that of a 7 year old and you cannot spell or use verbs correctly, why would anyone consider it is an advantage to be a native speaker?

I would maybe define this new category of "high proficiency native speaker" as a native speaker who has a high level of skills while also having acquired the language at an early age, with the intuition and "feel" for the language only a native speaker can have...

(by the way, it is really funny that our backgrounds are really similar. I was born in the US, then moved to Mexico, ended up at ASF...)

[Edited at 2007-05-29 05:40]


 
Kurt Porter
Kurt Porter  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:28
Russian to English
+ ...
Follow up to Irene May 29, 2007

A friend of mine was U.S. Army. Russian was his birth tounge. Spoke it in the house extensively while growing up in Germany. Mom and Dad also pushed it academically at home. Went to German schools from Grade school through Gymansium. Served in the Army for 20+ years as a military linguist...spoke at high levels in three languages. Which one was his native tounge? I don't know, but what I do know is that he suffered a terrible stroke. Never fully recovered, and he now speaks with great dif... See more
A friend of mine was U.S. Army. Russian was his birth tounge. Spoke it in the house extensively while growing up in Germany. Mom and Dad also pushed it academically at home. Went to German schools from Grade school through Gymansium. Served in the Army for 20+ years as a military linguist...spoke at high levels in three languages. Which one was his native tounge? I don't know, but what I do know is that he suffered a terrible stroke. Never fully recovered, and he now speaks with great difficulty. He has limited use use of all three languges, but the only one he could remember for 6 months after the stroke? Russian.


IreneN wrote:

Terry Richards wrote:

Another (rather interesting) example, I am currently taking a medication that has a side-effect that affects my use of language. This side effect has been fairly severe in my case but, rather oddly, only my English (my native language) is affected. Explain that one!


3 years ago my colleague sustained a severe head trauma followed by a surgery with a piece of his skull cut out and later put back in place. He was completely unconcsious for a couple of days. Being a native Russian, he speaks absolutely beautiful English, works in very hard technical fields and lives in the States for nearly 20 years. When he woke up in the hospital he found out that he had forgotten English! Completely. Thank God it came back to him in a week or so but he, and we all, have learned from the doctors that second language learned later in life is kept in the other hemisphere of our brain than the first one we speak after we are born. Can't put it any more scientifically but this is a fact.
Our own brain knows best, which language is our native. Weird...

[Edited at 2007-05-28 16:35]
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Marie-Hélène Hayles
Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:28
Italian to English
+ ...
I think the answer is very simple... May 29, 2007

... and I think Proz.com has (partly) got it right.

You're a native speaker if other natives think you are, simple as that. This is the system that Proz.com uses for people who want to be verified as native in two or more languages. Where I think Proz.com is wrong is that they do it on spoken language - I think it should be on the basis of written languages, given that this is a site for translators (interpreters could be exempted from this requirement).

I'd happily vo
... See more
... and I think Proz.com has (partly) got it right.

You're a native speaker if other natives think you are, simple as that. This is the system that Proz.com uses for people who want to be verified as native in two or more languages. Where I think Proz.com is wrong is that they do it on spoken language - I think it should be on the basis of written languages, given that this is a site for translators (interpreters could be exempted from this requirement).

I'd happily volunteer for a system in which people claiming native status were judged on what they write in these forums. In my opinion it's very easy indeed for a native to tell the difference between someone who's truly native and someone who isn't.
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Margreet Logmans (X)
Margreet Logmans (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 02:28
English to Dutch
+ ...
Agree with Marie-Hélène May 30, 2007

I sometimes see postings by people who claim to be native in English where even I can see obvious errors and wrong use of language. And I am not a native speaker of English. So I totally agree with Marie-Hélène: (quote)

- I'd happily volunteer for a system in which people claiming native status were judged on what they write in these forums. In my opinion it's very easy indeed for a native to tell the difference between someone who's truly native and someone who isn't. -
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I sometimes see postings by people who claim to be native in English where even I can see obvious errors and wrong use of language. And I am not a native speaker of English. So I totally agree with Marie-Hélène: (quote)

- I'd happily volunteer for a system in which people claiming native status were judged on what they write in these forums. In my opinion it's very easy indeed for a native to tell the difference between someone who's truly native and someone who isn't. -

I'm sure I would not pass the test! I began to learn English at a very young age, so I like to say it is my second language. But the more I read and write in English, the more I see the difference between a native language and a second language. My knowledge of English is much more passive, so to speak. Where words and sentences in Dutch just come flowing right out of my mouth/pen, I am a lot more self-conscious about the same things in English.

To me, that is an important factor. A native speaker can 'relax' in the use of the language, and be creative with words and such. A non-native cannot.
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Irene N
Irene N
United States
Local time: 20:28
English to Russian
+ ...
OK, one more time, for the purpose of our profession May 31, 2007

I have never claimed English to be my native language. You can see my mishaps every day. Admit, I am too lazy and chat too much to thoroughly proofread every post and my jobs are of better quality. I agree, I do not avoid some errors automatically, meaning that certain mishaps would never appear in the native's writing in the first place, which, in turn, clearly points at the fact that English is not my native language. I see them myself later on. I agree with you. But...

I am impud
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I have never claimed English to be my native language. You can see my mishaps every day. Admit, I am too lazy and chat too much to thoroughly proofread every post and my jobs are of better quality. I agree, I do not avoid some errors automatically, meaning that certain mishaps would never appear in the native's writing in the first place, which, in turn, clearly points at the fact that English is not my native language. I see them myself later on. I agree with you. But...

I am impudent enough to believe that my English is perfectly editable and proofreadable. The knowledge I possess in certain fields is quite unique and none of my native editors with engineering education will sell me for a team of professional native writers with no or little clue on the subject.

1. Being native in Russian, I understand the original 3 times better than any non-native translator working into his native language unless he is truly bilingual. Aren't you all forgetting that native grasp of the original is no less important than native presentation of the same?
2. I understand the subjects I work on, and any editor in his right mind would rather stick with me correcting my articles, tenses etc. than with a much less knowledgable native translator who would lose his sleep and deprive himself of an ice-cream for a week should he find a wrongly used article in his work:-)
3. I understand what I should and should not be accepting for translation into a non-native language.
4. I understand that under any circumstances I should not be working into English without a native editor.

The end client in any technical field is not interested in the solo concert of the translator. He wants to know how the damn piece of hardware ensures heating or cooling, pumps, flies, recovers itself and so on, and with my knowledge and editor's reasonable polishing effort he gets exactly what he needs. Trust me, any competent professional editor would trade a few articles for a competent source text.

I do not translate general subjects at all, and in my fields I just might beat a few natives...

For the purpose of final quality the question of my nativeness is irrelevant, provided that the above 4 conditions are met. It's about what I know, what I am capable of and what my very professional editors are willing to accept for editing.

Tell me you haven't seen a beautiful text flow making a technical editor go 5 shades blue...

Regards,
Irene

[Edited at 2007-05-31 18:00]
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Marie-Hélène Hayles
Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:28
Italian to English
+ ...
To Irene May 31, 2007

IreneN wrote:

I have never claimed English to be my native language.
Regards,
Irene

[Edited at 2007-05-31 18:00]


Right, so this thread (and my comments) aren't applicable to you! I believe you - I have no doubt whatosever that some technical areas are best translated by a source language native with expertise in that area, especially if there are no target language natives who have such expertise. But as you said yourself, your text is then checked by a target language native. That in itself demonstrates that you are a professional. (For my part, I run anything I'm not sure of past my [Italian] partner to make sure I haven't misunderstood or missed some nuance).

I'm far more irritated by those who claim native status (in English, I'm not qualified to judge for any other language) even though their written English is far worse than yours. (And by the way, we can all make mistakes when we write, it's just that natives make *different* mistakes!) And as I can see an easy way to stop this happening, I brought it up for consideration.


 
Kim Metzger
Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 19:28
German to English
You're a pro, Irene May 31, 2007

IreneN wrote:

I have never claimed English to be my native language.

I am impudent enough to believe that my English is perfectly editable and proofreadable. The knowledge I possess in certain fields is quite unique and none of my native editors with engineering education will sell me for a team of professional native writers with no or little clue on the subject.



I've read your previous posts on this subject, Irene, and I must say you've convinced me that you are a real pro. And I think you've demonstrated one of the exceptions to the rule that one should translate only into one's native language.

Kim


 
Marcelo Silveyra
Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 18:28
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Well, there ya go! May 31, 2007

Can't disagree with Kim, and that's exactly why I added a comment about my first post being misinterpreted- which has happened quite a few times already. I think we would all benefit if there was a way to check people's claims about native speaker status (or proficiency, or whatever) - pronto. Shame that we can't do the same for people translating into languages that they shouldn't be translating into! (Ok, ok, "into which they shouldn't be translating.")

Remind me not to write l
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Can't disagree with Kim, and that's exactly why I added a comment about my first post being misinterpreted- which has happened quite a few times already. I think we would all benefit if there was a way to check people's claims about native speaker status (or proficiency, or whatever) - pronto. Shame that we can't do the same for people translating into languages that they shouldn't be translating into! (Ok, ok, "into which they shouldn't be translating.")

Remind me not to write long posts with clear and logical explanations in the future. They don't seem to work much in certain subjects.
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absciarretta
absciarretta  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:28
Member (2008)
English to Norwegian
+ ...
I agree with Marie-Hélène! Jun 7, 2007

I was raised in a bilingual home, had grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins speak both languages to me all through childhood. Yes, I grew up in Norway but when I go to the US people ask me which state I am from. English monolinguals around me (family and friends) will ask me for help with their English.

I also married an American and switch between Norwegian and English on a dime, so to speak, daily.

So I claim both Norwegian and English as my native languages.


 
hchetty (X)
hchetty (X)
Local time: 03:28
English to German
+ ...
Don't think so Jun 8, 2007

myrcarromero wrote:

There are some cases, very few, but they are, of people born, raised and literated in bilingual even trilingual communities. Switzerland, Belgium, North European Countries, and in Spain, Catalonia, Galicia, Basque Country. They learn two or three languages since they born, and feel the same confidence in both languages. With Gaelic and the languages spoken in Ireland, Scotland, I know that the local governments are trying to do the same, but I am not aware of the results so far.




I studied at the Zurich University of Applied Sciences and there were many so-called Swiss bilinguals in my year. Although most of them have been equally exposed to two languages, you could see in their work that they didn't have a 100% command of both languages - it was rather something like 80-80.


 
Diana Loos
Diana Loos  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:28
German to English
+ ...
Isn't it a question of definition? Jun 8, 2007

Isn't it simply a question of how you define "native speaker"? It seems to me that the word "native" defines the meaning. If you are born to and brought up by two parents speaking two different languages, then you could be said to have two native languages, but not otherwise, because of the meaning of the word. I have lived in Germany for 30 years - half my life - but I'm still a "native speaker" of English, although my German proficiency is such that I work as a journalist and publicist in both... See more
Isn't it simply a question of how you define "native speaker"? It seems to me that the word "native" defines the meaning. If you are born to and brought up by two parents speaking two different languages, then you could be said to have two native languages, but not otherwise, because of the meaning of the word. I have lived in Germany for 30 years - half my life - but I'm still a "native speaker" of English, although my German proficiency is such that I work as a journalist and publicist in both languages and am regarded by my family, friends and colleagues as completely bilingual. But bilingual is not the same as being a native speaker!!!Collapse


 
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Can someone be a native speaker of more than one language?






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