| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Once and for all - what\'s the qualification \"native speaker\"? Thread poster: Klaus Dorn (X)
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Wit 
Local time: 16:17
English to Polish
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| bilingual vs. native vs. translating | Feb 18, 2003 |
I\'ll try to be consise.
I am bilingual AND I consider myself being a native Polish&Russian speaker. (And no one can tell me from the native, anyway.)
At the \"native speaker\" level (and I understand it as both perfect pronounciation and \"feel\" of the languague) the family/childhood experiences matter most. (Though I wouldn\'t ultimately exclude the possibility someone can acquire them later.) Being a bilingual person is more about fluency&proficiency -- I know people living&working f... See more I\'ll try to be consise.
I am bilingual AND I consider myself being a native Polish&Russian speaker. (And no one can tell me from the native, anyway.)
At the \"native speaker\" level (and I understand it as both perfect pronounciation and \"feel\" of the languague) the family/childhood experiences matter most. (Though I wouldn\'t ultimately exclude the possibility someone can acquire them later.) Being a bilingual person is more about fluency&proficiency -- I know people living&working for tens of year in foreign countries who could never be considered native speakers, yet being bilingual in a sense I attach to it.
Anyway any bilingual person has different experiences/knowledge/vocabulary and so on, in each language -- no one reads the same books, attend the same lectures, have the same friends, or make the same translations into both. Actually there are two persons/translators. Hence bi-native persons exist, and bilingual persons exist too. As well as translators. But all of them are different kinds of animals. And no one is his/hers own doppelganger. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Flemish to English
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| Officially bilingual/multilingual areas | Feb 20, 2003 |
To translate into your mother-tongue only: A \"holy\" principle (notwithstanding the fact that at T&I-school, you are required to translate back and forth into your chosen languages, otherwise you never obtain your degree).
The mother-tongue of a person/translator living in a country with one official language might be a dialect?
In most of the unilingual countries, such as Germany or Britain, not the USA(because Spanish is the second language there) have a standard langua... See more To translate into your mother-tongue only: A \"holy\" principle (notwithstanding the fact that at T&I-school, you are required to translate back and forth into your chosen languages, otherwise you never obtain your degree).
The mother-tongue of a person/translator living in a country with one official language might be a dialect?
In most of the unilingual countries, such as Germany or Britain, not the USA(because Spanish is the second language there) have a standard language, which is the norm.
So, should you only translate into this standard language, actually your second language if your mother-tongue is a regional variant of the language?
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Brussels in Belgium is officially bilingual and in practice a tower of Babel.
In this city kids growing up, speak French at home, attend a Dutch-speaking secondary education and study at the French-speaking University).
After WW I, the German cities of Eupen, Sank-Vith and Malmédy were \"given\" to Belgium by the treaty of Versailles. They have been Belgian every since.
Many people living there are bilingual French/German. They only have to go a couple of miles and they find themselves in officially French-speaking territory.
They are brought up in German (home or secondary education, go on the street and speak either French or German) and attend the \"Université de Liège\", Université Libre de Bruxelles\" or the \"Université Catholique de Louvain\". (French speaking)or the Hochschule/Universität Aachen.
In some Dutch/Flemish speaking cities of Belgium, the elite speaks French at home, has their children educated in French, but on the street they speak Flemish/Dutch.
The children of the Eurocrats usually attend the European School of Brussels and grow up in a multicultural and multilingual environment.
I guess the same is true for countries like Switzerland (French, Romance, Italian and German as official languages), the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg and quite a few other countries.
To define the mother-tongue in countries such as Belgium, Switzerland and other multilingual countries does not go without saying. Why should I translate into my mother-tongue only, if I have grown up with the language of my neighbor (French) and can ask that well-educated and specialized neighbor specialized in a certain topic to review my texts translated into his mother-tongue?
Mother-tongue only: So, my German colleagues should be translating only into Schwabisch, Pfälzisch, the dialect of Hamburg, the dialect of Sachsen-Anhalt ...  for that is their mother-tongue. Standard German is taught at school.
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| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 17:17
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| More important to understand the source text fully | Mar 9, 2003 |
I had once a contact who did not want my services, because I had mentioned in my Cv, that I had translated a lot into secondary languages too.
But at least in Central Europe agencies understand, that it is more important, how you do your job than where you were born. I would say, that a good translation always requires two translators, because also when you translate into your best language you make mistakes. Most important is to understand the source text, because if you dont, the tra... See more I had once a contact who did not want my services, because I had mentioned in my Cv, that I had translated a lot into secondary languages too.
But at least in Central Europe agencies understand, that it is more important, how you do your job than where you were born. I would say, that a good translation always requires two translators, because also when you translate into your best language you make mistakes. Most important is to understand the source text, because if you dont, the translation cannot be adaquate, even if you master the target language like Shakespeare his English.
By the way, was not Nabokow a Master of English too? ▲ Collapse
| | | | sylver
Local time: 22:17
English to French
| Being practical | Mar 18, 2003 |
A lot of arguments on that one, and on about every translator forum I have ever been part of, too.
What is that \"native speaker\" stamp? It\'s a matter of context. If we take it from the buyer\'s viewpoint, it becomes a lot clearer.
Most of the time, when you have a translation work to assign, you get a zillion applications from guys you don\'t know. (If you knew a good translator available, you wouldn\'t post a job, right ?)
Now ... See more A lot of arguments on that one, and on about every translator forum I have ever been part of, too.
What is that \"native speaker\" stamp? It\'s a matter of context. If we take it from the buyer\'s viewpoint, it becomes a lot clearer.
Most of the time, when you have a translation work to assign, you get a zillion applications from guys you don\'t know. (If you knew a good translator available, you wouldn\'t post a job, right ?)
Now you have to select some fellow to do the translation. One (or a few)of them is/are going to be selected, and the others are gonna be left in the bushes.
How do you select? Unless you know the target language AND have the time to test 50 to 100 applicants, you have to go by probabilities. Who is the most likely to know the target language & culture well? Is it a guy who was born and lived in the target country? Or is it the guy who studied the language at school and made a couple trips?
Yes, a foreigner could become 100% bilingual, and correct native guys mistakes. But realize that on today\'s market, for each \"foreign\" pro, there are a thousand guys who just don\'t make the grade, and yet come up with the claim that they are 200% bilingual.
We all laugh at translation bloopers, the big ones. But realise that they couldn\'t possibly be made by a native speaker. Gee a native would have o be dead drunk before speaking of \"sexually attractive chickens\".
I am sorry for those who actually do make the grade, and suffer an injust prejudice, but there are just too many who don\'t.
Theorically speaking, I agree that \"native speaker\" is discriminative. Practically speaking, hell if I am ever again to take a chance on a non native, so long I have native candidates that fit the curriculum.
Selection based on anything else then extensive experience with the translator MUST rely on probability.
And following the laws of probability, a guy who actually lived the largest part of his childhood/teenhood in the target country is the most likely candidate. Period.
It may sound harsh, but if you take the viewpoint of the guy who has to outsource the job, you will understand what I mean. ▲ Collapse
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 17:17
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| You're right, of course | Mar 19, 2003 |
If you don\'t know the guy of course you chose the one who claims to be \"native\". Some of the worst translations I have seen were by an woman from Hamburg who had moved to Finland and had translated a wep page into German. When I taught at the University of Helsinki I used to give my mostly native Finnish students as a first exercise the correction of that text.
When I started to go freelance most of my contacts required translations from German into Finnish, a language I aquired aft... See more If you don\'t know the guy of course you chose the one who claims to be \"native\". Some of the worst translations I have seen were by an woman from Hamburg who had moved to Finland and had translated a wep page into German. When I taught at the University of Helsinki I used to give my mostly native Finnish students as a first exercise the correction of that text.
When I started to go freelance most of my contacts required translations from German into Finnish, a language I aquired after my 25th birthday. I guess, the fact that I have a German name makes me more trustworthy to those agencies in Germany and Austria than my native Finnish colleagues. I don\'t know.
As a fact I got never any complains from those agencies, but my Finnish contacts, for whom I translate into my native German (my Master degree is in German philology), rather often are very critical.
\"Well I don\'t speak German, but my neighbor understands it well and he told me, that there were mistakes in your German translation!\"
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| | | | sylver
Local time: 22:17
English to French
| Off topic: Arrrgh | Mar 25, 2003 |
As I write, this thread has been seen 666 times. Scary!
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Flemish to English
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| Heart of Darkness | Apr 1, 2003 |
by Joseph Conrad. A masterpiece in English literature written by a native?
| | | | | There will always be exceptions to the rule... | Apr 10, 2003 |
Conrad, Samuel Beckett, Nabokov... all wrote amazing prose in non-native tongues. Unfortunately they are not representative of most of us mere mortals...
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