xxxVerse 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 10:43 English to Serbian + ...
...
Dec 1, 2008
Neema wrote:
Hi there,
I am new here and I have a question. I have two mother tongues, one is Berber which is a North African ancient language and the second is Arabic. But I don't put Berber in my profile since it is a very regional language. However my question is : if I attended a bilingual school French-Arabic from Kindergarten until Grade 12, and then went to French-language university, so does this make French my second native language?
Thanks,
Naima
Hello Neema,
Modern linguistic theories indicate that the human brain ( the language zone) can integrate a language as an absolute mother-tongue by the age of 12, and never will it be possible to be acquired as a native language after this age. Now we need to define precisely what a native language is, and what a foreign language is ( the mind processes them differently).
So, since you attended the bilingual school in the early age, by Grade 12, I take you have two native languages. But this is just a rough estimation. There are thousands of other parameters that linguistic science involves in this subject.
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DrAT2 Switzerland Local time: 10:43 Member (2010) English to French + ...
mother/native tongue as a political, not linguistic category
Nov 3, 2009
In my opinion, the idea of mother tongue/native tongue is political rather than linguistic. From a linguistic point of view, you can be "native" in several languages. This term is not really adequate on a linguistic level, because it refers to an extra-linguistical factor. Maybe the word "proficient" would serve better.
The words "mother" and "native" are a political category. They are based on birth and belonging, on inclusion in a social group. There's a whole idea of other languages as foreign, possibly threatening, influence lurking behind there. I think this is linked to a monolingual conception of the nation-state and might not be entirely adequate in this changing world of ours with its evolving migratory patterns and communication habits.
To be true, in many cases, native languages are the ones you are proficient in. But you can be proficient in more than one, and you can lose proficiency in your actual mother/birth tongue from lack of use (I speak from experience).
Required factors for being proficient in a language:
-acquisition at a young age
-constant use
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Pablo Bouvier Spain Local time: 10:43 Member German to Spanish + ...
What makes a language a native one?
Nov 3, 2009
Neema wrote:
Hi there,
I am new here and I have a question. I have two mother tongues, one is Berber which is a North African ancient language and the second is Arabic. But I don't put Berber in my profile since it is a very regional language. However my question is : if I attended a bilingual school French-Arabic from Kindergarten until Grade 12, and then went to French-language university, so does this make French my second native language?
Thanks,
Naima
Which is the native language of a Swiss-Belgian person? French, Dutch, German, Italian or Romansh? I believe that a native language is the one that you write and speak correctly. Just as a native one.
[Editado a las 2009-11-03 12:22 GMT]
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xxxMagdalene.P Italy Local time: 10:43 Italian to Greek + ...
I have a similar problem
Nov 3, 2009
Although I have been to english afternoon school after the age of 12 (this is the first time I hear about this theory and I thank the person that provided the info) and my mother was perfectly bilingual greek-english as she was born and raised in the UK, I myself can say that I am "officially" native in Greek. However, could someone explain to me why I tend to burst my anger in english (but I do the counting in greek) or catch myself thinking in english or especially why I tend to identify the "english" word for an Italian one when translating whereas it takes me more time to elaborate what is the "greek" translation for that same word? I know that my english needs some serious polishing and I am setting out my stall to do something about this...not because I have to prove myself to somebody but because I love english and I love learning as much as I love and praise the greek language...which unfortunately is not so "commercial"....I don't understand why people - agencies and translators - are being so harshly critical when it comes to people who feel comfortable translating into a language that is not their "native". Setting the record straight, I would definetely prefer to "trust" a mother-tongue speaker but I would never exclude someone if he/she is proficient and enthusiastic enough.
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If you have any doubts, then I suspect your level is not exactly up to native level.
If you want to make sure of it, why not hire a native French proofreader (or ask a native French speaker) to check a text you have written in French, and tell you if it sounds native, and if it is good enough to be potentially published? You may speak like a native, but do you write like a native?
The truth is that if you want to translate into a language, you need to be able to write better than the average native speaker of that language.
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Laurent KRAULAND France Local time: 10:43 Member (2007) French to German + ...
A good beginning
Nov 3, 2009
Geraldine Oudin wrote:
The truth is that if you want to translate into a language, you need to be able to write better than the average native speaker of that language.
Good luck!
... although the "average" command (at least from what I see, read and hear) of some European languages seems to go down and down - I can tell of someone who was HR manager and wrote (maybe: "still writes") phylosophe instead of philosophe. This speaks for illiteracy if for nothing else. And I think we can forget about the horrors of the daily news broadcast on some -in that case, French- channels as well as about the written style of those who should know better (journalists, to mention only these)... Needless to say, these people do not have any doubt about the fact that their "usage and abusage" of the language is more than just correct...
[Edited at 2009-11-03 13:43 GMT]
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Michele Fauble United States Local time: 02:43 Member (2006) Norwegian to English + ...
A native language
Nov 3, 2009
A native language is a language that you have learned at a young age as a member of a community of native speakers.
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Williamson United Kingdom Local time: 09:43 Flemish to English + ...
Dialects
Nov 4, 2009
If so, I wonder how many people grow up with the standard language?
I for one, did not and i will not be the only one. My mother's native language was a Flemish dialect and she used the restricted code (see Basil Bernstein). My girl-friend's native language was a Walloon dialect, but she spoke French and used the elaborated code, given that her parents were BCBG (upper-class people).
With regard to translation and interpreting "native" does not matter. Proficiency does.
[Edited at 2009-11-04 16:56 GMT]
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Rudolf Vedo CT United States Local time: 03:43 Member (2008) Croatian to English + ...
"Nativeness" not synonymous with skill
Nov 4, 2009
Geraldine Oudin wrote:
If you want to make sure of it, why not hire a native French proofreader (or ask a native French speaker) to check a text you have written in French, and tell you if it sounds native, and if it is good enough to be potentially published? You may speak like a native, but do you write like a native?
The truth is that if you want to translate into a language, you need to be able to write better than the average native speaker of that language.
Such a test would definitely be valid for determining whether one knows a language well enough to (potentially) translate into it, but it would be equally enlightening for both native and acquired languages. However, Neema did not state that this was the reason for her question.
In any case, I would venture that a large proportion (dare I say a majority?) of the unquestionably "native" speakers of any given language are incapable of producing "publishable" writing. Surely there are some parts of the world (and isolated cases throughout) where native speakers cannot write their own languages at all.
If Neema feels French to be one of her native languages, it probably is one. Of course, that alone is not a sufficient standard for translating into it.
[Edited at 2009-11-04 19:32 GMT]
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M. Ali Bayraktar Turkey Local time: 11:43 Member English to Turkish + ...
Thinking in it...
Nov 4, 2009
If you can think in it then it is your native language.
If not, then it is not.
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