| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Being asked to accept rate cuts for the next 2 years to come? Thread poster: lillkakan
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MariusV 
Lithuania
Local time: 07:27
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
Option 1: A person works for half of his/her usual rate - that means either:
1) he/she has to take a double workload to get the same amount he/she gets for his/her usual rate as to get the usual income, or
2) he/she gets half of the usual infome for the usual workload.
Option 2: A person works for his/her usual rate - that means either:
1) he/she has to work 2 times less to get same income (compared to "half-rate" workload), or
2) ... See more Option 1: A person works for half of his/her usual rate - that means either:
1) he/she has to take a double workload to get the same amount he/she gets for his/her usual rate as to get the usual income, or
2) he/she gets half of the usual infome for the usual workload.
Option 2: A person works for his/her usual rate - that means either:
1) he/she has to work 2 times less to get same income (compared to "half-rate" workload), or
2) he/she can have 2 times more of the income under the usual workload (compared to the "half-rate" workload).
Which option is better?
In my personal opinion, it is a good time for you to say "Sorry, I already worked for you for quite a long for half of my usual rate and I cannot go below. Good bye". And look for new clients who can pay your usual rate. I know it is not so easy from the psychological side, as, being a free-lancer, one does not feel "secure" (and the underpaying agency also know it) - "Well, they used to give me a permanent workload what meant a permanent income...Small rate, but what is I refuse...I lose my income"...But do not think like that - be "brave" to say "No" and start looking for better clients and your efforts will be rewarded.
P.S. About the "big volumes" - it often happens that there is a little rain out from a big cloud. NO ONE can guarantee you the volumes. If they speak about the volumes, reply in a simple way "This is my usual rate. WHEN the volumes reach, say, 100 000 words, from 100 001 words to 200 000 words I give you a 5 % discount, and from 200 001 words I give you a 10 % discount. All those promises about huge volumes is just talking about the air with the purpose to "hook" you up to agree on small rates ("Oh, they promise so much").
[Edited at 2008-03-20 20:45] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 06:27
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | "especially since they won't pay me in euro" | Mar 20, 2008 |
ROTFLMAO - and on the top of it all they have been paying you - lemme guess - in USD?
| | | | | Any "final position"? | Mar 20, 2008 |
lillkakan wrote:
I actually already sent my reply to the agency, telling them they pay me too little already and if anything I was looking to raise my rates this year, especially since they won't pay me in euro instead...
And did you just end there, leaving them to make of it what they will, or did you end it along the lines of "I therefore politely suggest that you go boil your head" as so many have suggested?
Because otherwise I would suggest a compromise of sorts, whereby you decline this particular project, but offer yourself as backup/overflow at your usual rate with them if they need you.
It rather depends on how many other customers you have, but I see no need to burn bridges permanently.
You are too expensive for this project, in their view - fine, let them find someone cheaper.
They pay too little for you, generally - fine, do more work for other clients.
But I see no need to ever just say "no" in the way others have suggested. Situations change..... I just think it more professional and generally "nicer" to reach a situation where you have agreed to differ, as it were, and have agreed that your positions are incompatible, rather than have one side or the other slam the door in the other's face, metaphorically.
Basically, unless I was absolutely sure I would never ever want to work with them again, I would like to keep the lines of communication open, just in case...
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 00:27
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Tomorrow ... | Mar 21, 2008 |
... is the first day of the rest of your life.
And this agency (for want of a better word...) expects you to lower your rates for the next 700 or so 'tomorrows'?
No way! Life's too short.
I'm just wondering if that 'agency' will itself live to see another 700 tomorrows - not that I care. Not that you should care either...
MediaMatrix
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 07:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
They can never garantee you any certain amount of work ober the next two years because the end-client can find another supplier very soon.
Its not a good idea to work much cheaper for certain clients, because its unfair to the well paying clients. You don't wont all jobs going to cheap labor countries, do you?
It once happened to me, that an agency tried to find a cheper solution and started to use a proxy for their jobs. This proxy was also a client of mine, so I continued to... See more They can never garantee you any certain amount of work ober the next two years because the end-client can find another supplier very soon.
Its not a good idea to work much cheaper for certain clients, because its unfair to the well paying clients. You don't wont all jobs going to cheap labor countries, do you?
It once happened to me, that an agency tried to find a cheper solution and started to use a proxy for their jobs. This proxy was also a client of mine, so I continued to recieve the same jobs as before. Then they moved to Trados and came back to me straight. Of course a raised my rates after that.
Cheers
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 07:27
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
| one door closes, another opens | Mar 21, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: lillkakan wrote:
I actually already sent my reply to the agency, telling them they pay me too little already and if anything I was looking to raise my rates this year, especially since they won't pay me in euro instead...
And did you just end there, leaving them to make of it what they will, or did you end it along the lines of "I therefore politely suggest that you go boil your head" as so many have suggested? Because otherwise I would suggest a compromise of sorts, whereby you decline this particular project, but offer yourself as backup/overflow at your usual rate with them if they need you. It rather depends on how many other customers you have, but I see no need to burn bridges permanently. You are too expensive for this project, in their view - fine, let them find someone cheaper. They pay too little for you, generally - fine, do more work for other clients. But I see no need to ever just say "no" in the way others have suggested. Situations change..... I just think it more professional and generally "nicer" to reach a situation where you have agreed to differ, as it were, and have agreed that your positions are incompatible, rather than have one side or the other slam the door in the other's face, metaphorically. Basically, unless I was absolutely sure I would never ever want to work with them again, I would like to keep the lines of communication open, just in case...
I disagree - it is not good to "sleep" on one client. Sometimes it is better to be more brave and say "no" than to expect huge volumes, agree on all conditions, where there is a high possibility that the situation will end with the end client will find another vendor (I think they are already doing that because they are pressing the agency to cut down on the rate. Maybe, if the agency wants very much to "save" the client (and their cash from the client they used to get), they can have other solutions, like a revision of their profit margin (no one will work without a profit)...I'd be firm and would tell them in plain text - you are already getting half of my usual rate and I cannot go below. And I am almost sure - if they come back to you after that, they will come back after their profit margin revision If they do not come back - a good time to look for better clients.
| | | | | I think you have made up your mind? | Mar 21, 2008 |
It sounds like you are in no mind to accept this "offer". How would you feel working on huge volumes at even less than half your normal rate?
Samuel's advice is good if this is a major client that you feel your income depends on.
But your answer suggests that you feel it would not be worth the effort.
If this is the case - tell them what you consider an acceptable rate, and if they don't meet it, drop them.
Maybe I should not be giving any advice as ... See more It sounds like you are in no mind to accept this "offer". How would you feel working on huge volumes at even less than half your normal rate?
Samuel's advice is good if this is a major client that you feel your income depends on.
But your answer suggests that you feel it would not be worth the effort.
If this is the case - tell them what you consider an acceptable rate, and if they don't meet it, drop them.
Maybe I should not be giving any advice as this has never happened to me, but I do have some US based clients. Some of them have been dropped because of price. Some have raised their rates to compensate for the currency, either on their own or because I have asked for it. And those clients I have kept. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Depends on whether you enjoy the work/like the customer | Mar 21, 2008 |
Agree with Charlie.
I have only once closed the door completely. The customer started to use a proofreader whose style was not mine and it just became to complicated (I was spending far too much time explaining my choices). I have, however, agreed to differ about rates with 3 customers (one a direct one) and accepted lowering my rate for one other customer (but only by 10%) because they did guarantee a very substantial volume of work (on average, 20,000 words per month for 2 years n... See more Agree with Charlie.
I have only once closed the door completely. The customer started to use a proofreader whose style was not mine and it just became to complicated (I was spending far too much time explaining my choices). I have, however, agreed to differ about rates with 3 customers (one a direct one) and accepted lowering my rate for one other customer (but only by 10%) because they did guarantee a very substantial volume of work (on average, 20,000 words per month for 2 years now and they pay in euros). This was not done formally (i.e. through a contract) but I am classed as a 'preferred vendor'. They are also one of my 'preferred customers' because they are always open to suggestions, they take me seriously, they will consult their customer when there are issues, etc. In other words, I like working for them. I also get many of the follow-on jobs for the same customers (some of them even ask for me, which does wonders for my ego) and since I use Trados, the leverage is high (to my advantage) and the initial research is also already done, which makes translating a lot faster/easier.
So the bottom line is whether you enjoy the work and whether you can recoup your level of earning (on a per hour basis) even though you have lowered your rate. ▲ Collapse
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| Sorry Marius | Mar 21, 2008 |
MariusV wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
(loads!)
I disagree - it is not good to "sleep" on one client.
What does that mean, please?
Do you mean "wholly rely on" in which case I agree, and at no point above did I suggest that the original poster should agree to the terms proposed or only work for that client. The summary of my suggestion was to politely decline that project at those rates, but leave the door open for a)the customer to change their mind about the rate and/or b) leave the way open to possible future work at the translator's desired rate.
Or does "sleep" mean you don't like to have dormant clients, in which case, fine, personal preferences..... I see no problem, but we are not all the same!
Sorry, I don't mean to sound awkward, I realise English is not your mother tongue, just trying to understand your objection.
Sometimes it is better to be more brave and say "no" than to expect huge volumes, agree on all conditions,
Yes, I said that, but the point is, in my view, to say "no" to that job only, not to the client as a whole, for the rest of all eternity.
where there is a high possibility that the situation will end with the end client will find another vendor (I think they are already doing that because they are pressing the agency to cut down on the rate. Maybe, if the agency wants very much to "save" the client (and their cash from the client they used to get), they can have other solutions, like a revision of their profit margin (no one will work without a profit)...I'd be firm and would tell them in plain text - you are already getting half of my usual rate and I cannot go below.
Again, while I didn't speculate about the background, your conclusion is no different to what I said
[quote
And I am almost sure - if they come back to you after that, they will come back after their profit margin revision If they do not come back - a good time to look for better clients.
[/quote]
Again, no difference btween us that I can see.
In short, old chap, I am somewhat mystified as to why you quoted my entire previous post, said "I disagree" and then proceeded to adopt a very similar viewpoint to my own
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 06:27
French to Dutch
+ ...
| A reduction on reduced rates? | Mar 21, 2008 |
lillkakan wrote:
I was wondering if this has ever happened to anyone else and what your response was. Is this common practice? Basically, an agency which I have worked with for about a year (at a rate per word that is now about 50% below my average) is now asking me to further cut my rates (when I was looking to -raising- them).
Are you serious? Of course this is no, I already would have said no to rates which are 50% under my own rates (even 10%).
One year ago, one of the five agencies I work for asked me to lower my rates, but this was wrapped in New Year's wishes ("we are happy to work with you, but if you want to work for us in this new year we kindly ask you to reconsider your prices"). I was very unhappy about this mixing up of different subjects. In the new year I sent a big client to them for something I couldn't do by myself (other language pair). Two weeks later: "A minimum fee of € 25 for a 120 words job? Don't you think you are exaggerating?". Conclusion: if the agency is not able anymore to sell their jobs at reasonable prices, I am not interested anymore in working with them.
...anyone got any good tips for getting end clients, not agency clients? 
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 07:27
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
Dear Charlie,
----
I disagree - it is not good to "sleep" on one client.
What does that mean, please?
Do you mean "wholly rely on" in which case I agree, and at no point above did I suggest that the original poster should agree to the terms proposed or only work for that client. The summary of my suggestion was to politely decline that project at those rates, but leave the door open for a)the customer to change their mind about the rate and/or b) leave the way ope... See more Dear Charlie,
----
I disagree - it is not good to "sleep" on one client.
What does that mean, please?
Do you mean "wholly rely on" in which case I agree, and at no point above did I suggest that the original poster should agree to the terms proposed or only work for that client. The summary of my suggestion was to politely decline that project at those rates, but leave the door open for a)the customer to change their mind about the rate and/or b) leave the way open to possible future work at the translator's desired rate.
Or does "sleep" mean you don't like to have dormant clients, in which case, fine, personal preferences..... I see no problem, but we are not all the same!
Sorry, I don't mean to sound awkward, I realise English is not your mother tongue, just trying to understand your objection.
---
>>I simply meant that:
1) there shall be a clear decision of the translator himself/herself - either 1) YES, I accept, 2) no, I DO NOT accept that proposal. Without anything "in between" or any mystical formulations like - "well, I am not sure, but, maybe...". The client shall get a clear answer and if it is a clear "NO", they might consider reducing their profit margin instead of the reduction to the "half-rate" to the translator (what they probably tried first). And if they do not come back - even better - getting 2 bucks is always better than getting 1 buck.
2) by "sleeping on one client" I simply meant that a) it is not good for us to become too much dependable on one client (a typical example here what comes next) b) we shall always be "on the move" with our client list - average clients shall be replaced by better clients, and all the client structure shall be distributed in such a way, that even dropping one or two by saying a clear "NO" to such proposals like this, would not cause a lot of "stress" or would cause no stress at all (financial, psychological, or both).
---
Again, while I didn't speculate about the background, your conclusion is no different to what I said Again, no difference btween us that I can see.
In short, old chap, I am somewhat mystified as to why you quoted my entire previous post, said "I disagree" and then proceeded to adopt a very similar viewpoint to my own
[/quote]
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>> Even similar conclusions/opinions might be SLIGHTLY different. Sorry - maybe I did not read all posts word-by-word and wrote what I wrote in a more general way (not specifically to you) without using Queen's English (nor did have that as an intent) at ~ 4.00 am Sorry for my poor English and good luck.
[Edited at 2008-03-21 19:30] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Roberto Tokuda
Local time: 01:27
Member (2005)
Japanese to Spanish
+ ...
| Other negotiation argument | Mar 22, 2008 |
If this agency ask to cut a half your rate for a particular cient at 20k word per month, then you can accept this rate IF the agency can promise another 10k word from other clients with a double of your actual rate. If the agency cant get this extra clients, normal rate will be applied. (or bit more, because penality).
(Ok, its a other manner to say goodbye, but with the ball in side of the agency).
Regards
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MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 07:27
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
Roberto Tokuda wrote:
If this agency ask to cut a half your rate for a particular cient at 20k word per month, then you can accept this rate IF the agency can promise another 10k word from other clients with a double of your actual rate. If the agency cant get this extra clients, normal rate will be applied. (or bit more, because penality).
(Ok, its a other manner to say goodbye, but with the ball in side of the agency).
Regards
Why:
1) promises are promises, agreements are agreements (agreements and liabilities are not always kept, so who will keep a promise and who would want to obligate oneself for something one cannot guarantee? - who knows, maybe that "same big client" will even go away?)
2) better would be to try to say a polite "no" first (with a clear and bried explanation) and see what happens (who knows, maybe they will return with a compromise having revised their margin and will offer to agree only on some simbolic discount?);
3) 20 kilos per month can be easily generated by doing some self-promo with a small investment (of time and money), let alone that only 10 kilos are needed to generate the same income on the "normal rate" (it is max a turnaround of 5 working days - why one shall spend 10 working days for the same income) + who knows, if you are rather lucky doing self-promo, maybe on the 2nd day someone would offer a 100 000 words project...
4) such a condition/proposal would sound somewhat "Well, I need that job SO BADLY" - it should be just vice versa (the translator shall appear to be somewhat or even totally reluctant to "negotiate" down the rate that is already half of the rate) - have some self-respect and SHOW it to the agency in an indirect manner...
[Edited at 2008-03-23 04:21]
| | | | | Maybe ask for advance payment? | Mar 24, 2008 |
..."unless we come down in price and agree to take a rate cut each year, we will no longer be able to get work from [client]. /.../ Give me your bottom line prices /.../ with the understanding that the prices will need to be good until 2010. /.../ I don't need your current rates, I need the lowest you can go with the understanding that in a year [client] will probably translate an average of 250,000-400,000 words in each language...
This proposal might be interesting if they included in their offer an upfront payment worth 50% of the 400,000 words that they to send you.
If you don't want to say "no" to them, you can say "yes but with 50% advance payment".
Would they agree to this? It is common business practice in other industries to accept discounts for upfront payment.
And even so...
Daniel
[Edited at 2008-03-24 15:39]
| | | | | Who's in charge here ...? | Mar 29, 2008 |
Your first question : what to do when an agency wants to cut rates ?
You've got 2 options - hold out for what you want (ie negotiate - something we should all learn how to do), and if you don't get it, walk away from it.
If the agency is satisfied with your work, they should be prepared to pay what you're worth, not what their accountant wants. If they can't sell your work (because that is what they are doing) to their customers at a decent rate, then they aren't doing ... See more Your first question : what to do when an agency wants to cut rates ?
You've got 2 options - hold out for what you want (ie negotiate - something we should all learn how to do), and if you don't get it, walk away from it.
If the agency is satisfied with your work, they should be prepared to pay what you're worth, not what their accountant wants. If they can't sell your work (because that is what they are doing) to their customers at a decent rate, then they aren't doing THEIR job properly.
There are plenty of fish in the sea - and plenty of agencies who pay decent rates because they are good, professional companies who sell added value to their clients.
Your second question : how to get more direct accounts ?
The answer to that could take up several pages, but essentially you need to decide what markets you are in, what types of customers you are looking for, what services you are offering them .... and what your budget is.
Then you have to identify them (all sorts of options there), and decide how to communicate with them - here again the options are numerous, because we are talking about marketing you, as a translator : mailings, e-mails, yellow pages, direct contact ....
If you want some more ideas from an ex-marketing man (but as you can see I still think in those terms), e-mail me. ▲ Collapse
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