| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | All translations 0,05 cents, VAT and surtaxes included.... Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 11:34
French to English
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| Kim is (again) right | Jun 4, 2008 |
It is very sad to see that what used to be a forum where one could brainstorm and exchange ideas and suggestions with like-minded professionals has sunk to the level we have reached today - with all the consequences in terms of pricing that started this thread in the first place.
It is indeed true that some people have been more or less permanently muzzled - I have been temporarily silenced on more than one occasion, which as a true, trained professional, I find insulting but that's... See more It is very sad to see that what used to be a forum where one could brainstorm and exchange ideas and suggestions with like-minded professionals has sunk to the level we have reached today - with all the consequences in terms of pricing that started this thread in the first place.
It is indeed true that some people have been more or less permanently muzzled - I have been temporarily silenced on more than one occasion, which as a true, trained professional, I find insulting but that's not the present issue....
More people have left, drummed out of the boy scouts or driven out in despair. And the new players are not of the same high level. It's only normal: when you start up a site like this, the market to be tapped is huge because there are generations out there to discover this type of possibility for the first time. Later the pickings are bound to be more meagre, once you have creamed off the top layer...
That said, Charlie is right when he says that ProZ only involves a very small percentage of the translation profession. Heaps of excellent, qualified and experienced translators work for companies or (international) organisations and they probably don't even know of its existence. I didn't until someone playing around the bottom fringes of the market told me. None of the many excellent people I have worked with or encountered over the years lurk around here, and that includes quite a few (now) freelancers.
I pulled out of translation 8 years ago (what a relief!) but I STILL get people asking me to do jobs for them. I could work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year (i.e. one day off every 4 years - JOKE) if I wanted to. And that is simply because of my speciality/reputation in the field. And I can name my price. That is how it works when you enter by the front door, not try to creep in via the back (with a LOT of help from your peers).
So there are indeed segments and the pricing problem is not mine. Yet, I am still desperate when I see the downward quality spiral that sites like this seem to generate almost automatically and especially if they are not concerned by the attendant problems that they create.
So I may continue to "play" around and answer specific questions but my black list will continue to get longer and longer.
PS Steffen is right when he says that different language pairs show different patterns - perhaps because he quotes German, where beginners cannot get away with murder in the same way they seem to feel they can in French.... (for example)
[Edited at 2008-06-04 06:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Allesklar 
Australia
Local time: 19:04
English to German
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I don't think that moronic askers and answerers on Kudoz pose that much of a problem.
Taking the logic of the argument above one step further, they even help by providing enough red herrings to ensure that clueless fly-by-nights won't get much use out of it.
Terminology is only a small part of translating anyway, otherwise MT would have taken over already.
The idea of an architect posting something along the lines of "URGENT... how do I calculate the tensi... See more I don't think that moronic askers and answerers on Kudoz pose that much of a problem.
Taking the logic of the argument above one step further, they even help by providing enough red herrings to ensure that clueless fly-by-nights won't get much use out of it.
Terminology is only a small part of translating anyway, otherwise MT would have taken over already.
The idea of an architect posting something along the lines of "URGENT... how do I calculate the tensile strength of reinforced concrete???? Please answer quickly, the bridge needs to go up tomorrow" in a professional forum does make me chuckle, though.
On a practical level, I don't think a website like this is going to be able to regulate a worldwide and fragmented industry such as ours.
If the clients are happy with with the quality provided by low-paid masses, then no website policy and no amount of huffing and puffing will stop us going the way of the farrier; if they aren't, the clients will come back to us soon enough. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | More on the low rate issue | Jun 4, 2008 |
writeaway wrote:
To cover such replies, Outsourcer added this (some of us may see this as 'insult to injury'):
Please, if you do not fulfill one or some of the requirements above, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS JOB AD. I cannot waste time reading mails of people who do not agree with the points previously mentioned.
One of those previously mentioned points is: - Willing to earn US$ 0.03 or US$ 0.04 per source word
Just to increase your blood pressure still further, you should take a look at the comments for the current poll (on how profitable translation is) and see what the person who posted this job has to say. Scraping a living she ain't.
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 11:34
French to English
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| PS with apologies | Jun 4, 2008 |
I wrote: "None of the many excellent people I have worked with or encountered over the years lurk around here, and that includes quite a few (now) freelancers."
I meant to add - but forgot - that I specifically excluded from that comment those few but great people I have encountered via the site. I was referring back to the days when I was in the thick of things...
MEA CULPA
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| Lots of colleagues... | Jun 4, 2008 |
writeaway wrote:
Willing to earn US$ 0.03 or US$ 0.04 per source word
Actually, there are lots of colleagues that state in their profiles that they do translations for that money. So...
Best,
Fernando
[Edited at 2008-06-04 13:01]
[Edited at 2008-06-04 13:02]
| | | | | Clearly the case-after all 131 people bid..... | Jun 4, 2008 |
Fernando Walker wrote: writeaway wrote:
Willing to earn US$ 0.03 or US$ 0.04 per source word Actually, there are lots of colleagues that state in their profiles that they do translations for that money. So... Best, Fernando [Edited at 2008-06-04 13:01] [Edited at 2008-06-04 13:02]
I hardly think that most of the 131 people who bid for the potential work being offered at 3/4 US cents a word were sending in complaints. It's why I find discussing rates a bit pointless, since there are definitely many on Proz (becoming the majority??) who are perfectly willing to work for such rates.
It's also why that outsourcer wants to have the option to enter "incredibly profitable" in today's poll (How profitable has translation been for you?). Says it all, doesn't it?
| | | | | Thank you, Eleftherios! | Jun 4, 2008 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Agencies and Translators are on the same side of the river. They should be friends. I explain:
Plumbers and painters, lawyers and even court reporters have increased their rates during the last 10 years – (and the agencies that sponsor them make even more money), but translators have lowered them, and by lowering them they have also provided ground for the establishment of hundreds of new agencies in an unregulated market, thus driving prices even lower -- that's common business sense for plumbers). All they need is two computers, a fax machine, and proz.com
a) If you (as translators) think that you’ re facing problems with prices, think what large agencies are facing (especially in the US), when they have to pay European translators 50% more than in the past (dollar vs Euro). Translators are more flexible in finding other jobs, agencies are not that flexible.
b) There is no way translation prices will increase in the future. More agencies, more amateurs, free spread of know-how, machine translation, TMs in the hands of end-clients. Consequently, agencies will be hurt much more than individual translators. You want to show you’ re professionals and not some open coffee shop patrons? Start charging (just like a lawyer or an accountant would do) the new "colleagues" for every terminology advice. For heaven's sake, it’s your job, not a chit-chat at some coffee shop. Also, establish a strong association and lobby for the regulation of the industry. All agencies charge their clients for the translation of even one sentence. You' re giving it for free to collect kindergarten "kudoz", even if it cost you $100 in the past to get that knowledge. Why?
c) Proz is a low-bidding site. The purpose of proz is not for translators to “introduce themselves” (they do that already by sending resumes); it’s purpose is to make translators compete for the lowest possible price.
d) The translation industry is completely unregulated. This means “very high risk” for both agencies and translators.
e) A regulated market (as much as it can be), where a translation MUST be done by an accredited translator (such as is the case with lawyers etc) will help both translators and agencies (as a matter of fact, it will help agencies more, since the profit percentage will increase). For the time being, it’s the biggest open mess I’ve ever seen. It’s just an old hobby, inflated by globalization to give the appearance of a "serious profession". When the money per person dries out, then it’ll go back to its “hobby” status. Hence the average age of members in this site...
f) Anyway, nobody talks about the key issue:Industry Regulation. Without Industry Regulation, it’s not a real profession; it’s only a less and less profitable hobby.
Thank you for your attention.
[Edited at 2008-06-03 01:14]
I couldn't agree more with each one of your words. You are completely right. Translation must be regulated. I think that young colleagues must be educated; I was educated, so? Who is the winner in this case: agencies, translators or websites for translators and agencies? Who cares for translation? Who is the responsible for regulation?
Thank you!
Fernando
| | | | | Yes, I saw it | Jun 4, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: writeaway wrote:
To cover such replies, Outsourcer added this (some of us may see this as 'insult to injury'):
Please, if you do not fulfill one or some of the requirements above, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS JOB AD. I cannot waste time reading mails of people who do not agree with the points previously mentioned.
One of those previously mentioned points is: - Willing to earn US$ 0.03 or US$ 0.04 per source word
Just to increase your blood pressure still further, you should take a look at the comments for the current poll (on how profitable translation is) and see what the person who posted this job has to say. Scraping a living she ain't.
To borrow HIGNFY phrasing, the words 'gloat' and 'in your face' come to mind.
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writeaway wrote:
It's why I find discussing rates a bit pointless, since there are definitely many on Proz (becoming the majority??) who are perfectly willing to work for such rates.
You are right. And that is a big problem... and also a pity. I don't understand why there are people who try to destroy the market. Anyway, it's a never-ending topic.
Best,
Fernando
| | | | | I don't agree | Jun 4, 2008 |
Gemma Monco Waters wrote:
I noticed that all of you are European or American, right? Do you not hear, behind you, the roaring masses of what we used to call the third world countries, who are accustomed to work for peanuts and for whom 2 cents of a USD a word is a fortune? So what if they have to slave away at their computer for 16 hours a day? They used to do it in the fields and earned less. With what they make now, they can keep their families in comfort and what the hell do they care if a bunch of rich Europeans cannot find work to do? Exploited for centuries by us, they are going on being exploited, but are being paid better.
I am from Argentina and, believe me, my rates are not USD 0.02 and I don't like to work for peanuts as you say. Besides, you cannot live in Argentina with USD 0.02 per word. Last week, I bid for a job on Proz and the rates I offered were much more higher than USD 0.02, so as you can see, I don't care where I live, I care for the profession. We are in a better position, but I don't rely on that when I offer my services. Maybe outsourcers and agencies DO benefit from this situation because those are the rates they offer to translators. They are in a privileged position.
Best,
Fernando
[Edited at 2008-06-04 14:06]
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:34
English to Spanish
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| I had refrained form answering this lovely piece of work | Jun 4, 2008 |
Fernando Walker wrote: Gemma Monco Waters wrote:
I noticed that all of you are European or American, right? Do you not hear, behind you, the roaring masses of what we used to call the third world countries, who are accustomed to work for peanuts and for whom 2 cents of a USD a word is a fortune? So what if they have to slave away at their computer for 16 hours a day? They used to do it in the fields and earned less. With what they make now, they can keep their families in comfort and what the hell do they care if a bunch of rich Europeans cannot find work to do? Exploited for centuries by us, they are going on being exploited, but are being paid better. I am from Argentina and, believe me, my rates are not USD 0.02 and I don't like to work for peanuts as you say. Besides, you cannot live in Argentina with USD 0.02 per word. Last week, I bid for a job on Proz and the rates I offered were much more higher than USD 0.02, so as you can see, I don't care where I live, I care for the profession. We are in a better position, but I don't rely on that when I offer my services. Maybe outsourcers and agencies DO benefit from this situation because those are the rates they offer to translators. They are in a privileged position. Best, Fernando
But since it finally caught someone else's eye, I'll go ahead and say I find it deeply insulting and obviously based on apalling ignorance, prejudice and misinformation, and leave it at that.
Greetings, Fernando
Andrea
[Edited at 2008-06-04 14:14]
| | | | Heidi C
Local time: 05:34
English to Spanish
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| It is just a matter of perspective... | Jun 4, 2008 |
There is so much going on on this thread!!!
And it truly reflects the active population of Proz.
Several people here have voiced perfectly my thoughts for the last year...
Many others are reflecting the current thoughts of the majority.
For quite a while, Proz was the first page I used to open on my computer, and I constantly had fun with the challenge of answering Kudoz questions and writing in the forums. (It actually became an addiction).
... See more There is so much going on on this thread!!!
And it truly reflects the active population of Proz.
Several people here have voiced perfectly my thoughts for the last year...
Many others are reflecting the current thoughts of the majority.
For quite a while, Proz was the first page I used to open on my computer, and I constantly had fun with the challenge of answering Kudoz questions and writing in the forums. (It actually became an addiction).
Now, once in a while I pass by the site, just for old times sake.
And then go on my way...
I also used to write in the forums to stress that a new panic mentality was developing, believing that the ridiculous prices that were THEN starting to appear were a reflection of the reality in the world of professional translation. That people should also look elsewhere to see what is really going on out there.
It is clear now that that panic has become HERE a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I'm not sure whether proz is destroying anything. I really don't know the source, but last year some time, I ended up with the impression that maybe 1% of the world's translators were members.
Anyway, there are many people on here who will say the quality market is out there and doing just fine. It just has little to do with proz.com.
...
We just need to take this site for what it is, and go elsewhere for the stuff it can't give us.
Charlie has stated exactly what I have noticed.
What I see lately is an increasing case of the blind leading the blind.
Of course, if the only job offers you ever see are the ones appearing here or offered by agencies, it is clear that $0.001 a word is the going rate (with 75% reductions for any repeated word), and the market is spiralling downward...
As an answer to this, I just want to quote from a small report that appeared on this month's ATA Chronicle:
"Following an analysis of economic trends that are expected to impact jobs growht, the U.S. Department of Labor contends that: 'Employment of interpreters and translators is projected to increase 24% over the 2006/2016 decade, much faster that the average for all occupations'...
To read the complete Interpreters and Transaltors Carreer Outlook Report prepared by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Department of Labor, go to
www. bls.gov/oco/ocos175.htm " (if you check the report, they even include statistics on earning...)
There are A LOT OF US who make a perfectly good living out of translation. And many of us have just decided to stop wasting whatever little free time we have trying to voice this fact in a place where 75% of the other voices are insisting that this is not so.
I still have warm feelings towards Proz because I have met many wonderful colleagues here with whom I now have a great relationship: both professionally and personally. Pity we seldom meet here any more.
[Edited at 2008-06-04 14:53] ▲ Collapse
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| 70% of Proz users, satisfied with their income | Jun 4, 2008 |
Heidi C wrote:
There are A LOT OF US who make a perfectly good living out of translation. And many of us have just decided to stop wasting whatever little free time we have trying to voice this fact in a place where 75% of the other voices are insisting that this is not so.
Yes, it actually happens that today's quick poll (http://www.proz.com/topic/106849) reveals that 70% of respondents (1267 people at this time of the day; which I presume make up a big chunk of Proz.com's daily users) say that translation is profitable (almost 50%) or very profitable (20%). So the situation is not terribly bad as of today. Maybe this poll should be repeated in a year's time, to better ascertain whether (and eventually how fast) the situation is changing.
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 11:34
English to Dutch
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writeaway wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote: writeaway wrote:
To cover such replies, Outsourcer added this (some of us may see this as 'insult to injury'):
Please, if you do not fulfill one or some of the requirements above, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS JOB AD. I cannot waste time reading mails of people who do not agree with the points previously mentioned.
One of those previously mentioned points is: - Willing to earn US$ 0.03 or US$ 0.04 per source word
Just to increase your blood pressure still further, you should take a look at the comments for the current poll (on how profitable translation is) and see what the person who posted this job has to say. Scraping a living she ain't. To borrow HIGNFY phrasing, the words 'gloat' and 'in your face' come to mind.
Still, this outsourcer has a Blue Board record with nothing but '5'. I'm speechless...
| | | | Marina Soldati
Argentina
Local time: 06:34
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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| Completely agree | Jun 4, 2008 |
Dear All,
Andrea Riffo wrote: Fernando Walker wrote: Gemma Monco Waters wrote:
I noticed that all of you are European or American, right? Do you not hear, behind you, the roaring masses of what we used to call the third world countries, who are accustomed to work for peanuts and for whom 2 cents of a USD a word is a fortune? So what if they have to slave away at their computer for 16 hours a day? They used to do it in the fields and earned less. With what they make now, they can keep their families in comfort and what the hell do they care if a bunch of rich Europeans cannot find work to do? Exploited for centuries by us, they are going on being exploited, but are being paid better. I am from Argentina and, believe me, my rates are not USD 0.02 and I don't like to work for peanuts as you say. Besides, you cannot live in Argentina with USD 0.02 per word. Last week, I bid for a job on Proz and the rates I offered were much more higher than USD 0.02, so as you can see, I don't care where I live, I care for the profession. We are in a better position, but I don't rely on that when I offer my services. Maybe outsourcers and agencies DO benefit from this situation because those are the rates they offer to translators. They are in a privileged position. Best, Fernando But since it finally caught someone else's eye, I'll go ahead and say I find it deeply insulting and obviously based on apalling ignorance, prejudice and misinformation, and leave it at that. Greetings, Fernando Andrea [Edited at 2008-06-04 14:14]
I completely agree with you and Fernando, I also find that post insulting.
Regards,
Marina
[Edited at 2008-06-04 15:08]
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