 Track this topic | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | | User | Thread poster: RobinB Great article on translator compensation in the United States |
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Paul Lambert 
Sweden
Local time: 12:45
 Member (2006)
Swedish to English
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| | Oleg, no question. | Jun 23, 2008 |
There is no doubt that what you are saying is right. I just don't see how the things you pointed out are any different in other lines of business.
I suppose at the end of the day if you are happy with what you are doing then that's fine.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 05:45
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
| | Devil's Advocate | Jun 23, 2008 |
To all:
I'll be doing the devil's advocate by pointing out again that the writer's language is not the most appropriate... so I agree with that...
But if you think that his comments are insulting, then how come you' re not reacting this way every time an outsourcer says "you live in a poor country and we'll pay you less"? Isn't that racism? Doesn't that imply "you are 'less' than the others and you'll get paid less".
Just think about it.
I also agree with Paul in that many businesses are going through the same pains right now... but our industry should not, because it's booming.
[Edited at 2008-06-23 13:28]
| | | | Oleg Rudavin
Ukraine
Local time: 13:45
 Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
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| Paul Lambert wrote:There is no doubt that what you are saying is right. I just don't see how the things you pointed out are any different in other lines of business. |
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It's just that I'm in this business and doing all to make the sutiation in the industry better - through personal contacts, trainings, and my book, hope that the conference I'm organizing will be a breakthrough (at least for the FSU market).
| I suppose at the end of the day if you are happy with what you are doing then that's fine. |
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| | | | TonyTK
German to English
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| | For many of us who have ... | Jun 23, 2008 |
... been around long enough to remember the glory days of Flefo on CIS, Bernie is something of a legend. Great to see him back at his controversial best.
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I'll be doing the devil's advocate by pointing out again that the writer's language is not the most appropriate... so I agree with that...
[Edited at 2008-06-23 13:28] |
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Yes, I think "diplomatic" is a four-letter word as far as Bernie is concerned. (And I hope that remark doesn't get me into a food fight with him.)
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Member (2006)
French to English
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| | The article has some legitimate points but... | Jun 23, 2008 |
I really need to address a few points here. Someone said...
"I do not think it's wise to attack a writer who is actually on our side (all of us). His remark about "housewives" (which I borrowed here), is not the best choice of words, but we all know what it implies..."
And what does this imply? That any woman who sets up a business out of their house is somehow in a lesser position than a man who does the same thing? If the point is about fly-by-night operators who charge too little and don't provide top-quality service, why not say so? Why use misogynistic language to make an otherwise legitimate point?
The same individual said...
"(by the way, you too justify the writer's claim that a business has turned into a supplementary side-income). Would you ever have your translation business as the sole income source for your family? Probably not. The writer claims that in the past, that was normal. He's correct."
[Edited at 2008-06-23 02:59] [/quote]
First, I think ~ $80,000/year is more than a "supplementary side income." While I'm not the only source of income in my family today, this can always change. Nothing is certain in life and yes, if necessary I could support my family.
But that isn't the point, is it. Why should you or anyone care if someone chooses to work part-time if they produce quality work and charge reasonable rates?
I did appreciate the author's point about the need to view freelance translation as a business. I haven't been in this business as long as some, but regardless of what I read in some forums, its quite possible to find clients who appreciate quality work and pay good rates if you make smart business decisions.
The market may be more challenging, and there are certainly issues to be legitimately discussed, but using language that denigrates 70% of the working population is a poor place to start.
  | | | | The Misha
United States
Local time: 06:45
English to Russian
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| | It is a business, folks | Jun 23, 2008 |
Oleg Rudavin and Laura Tridico are perfectly right: it is a business, first and foremost. Who ever said there were any guarantees in business? And who said that product quality alone does the job? Unless you posses skills and business acumen to negotiate better rates, no one is going to offer them to you on a silver platter. If you need someone to blame, blame yourself (I do) and strive to do better.
On the personal side: I returned to this industry about two years ago, out of necessity, having previously spent some 10 years running an unrelated business. Like everyone else, I started with measly rates just to get back in but quickly brought them up to the level I can live with. Do I work full time? No, but the business is gradually picking up. Could I do better? Sure, but that would mean spending more time on marketing and other things no business can do without. It's a business, remember?
P.S. The housewife argument is SOOOO pointless and offensive that I don't think it even merits a discussion. Disclosure: I am the primary care provider to my two kids and get to perform all the proverbial soccer mom functions on a regular basis. So, I kind of take it personally.
| | | | Juliana Starkman
Canada
Local time: 06:45
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
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| | I seemed to have lost my way here. | Jun 23, 2008 |
"Unfortunately, many excellent professionals left the business and their positions were filled by herds of part-time amateurs and clueless housewives."
I thought this was an intelligent forum for discussion by professionals, and instead I find I have stumbled onto the planet Troglodyte.
Better call my clients and warn them they may regret giving so much work to someone who might miss a deadline in favour of washing the windows...
For the rest of my colleagues...when you want higher rates you (a) earn them, and more importantly, (b) ask for them.
| | | | Samuel Murray
South Africa
Local time: 13:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| | Not offering, but accepting | Jun 23, 2008 |
RobinB wrote:
Here's a great quote, talking about online translation platforms:
Translation editors are offered compensation that is out of the 1950's!! |
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I disagree. Translation editors aren't "offered" such compensation. They are "accepting" such compensation. This means they're quoting low prices to begin with. And whose fault is that?
[Edited at 2008-06-23 20:10]
| | | | Kathryn Litherland
United States
Local time: 06:45
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
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| | top 25% income is not "modest" | Jun 24, 2008 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Maybe you didn't read it well enough... |
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That could very well be a possibility. I found the whole premise annoying, which tends to make me look for the most egregious flaws in someone's arguments rather than the points of agreement.
He also claims that the current trend makes us think “whether it is an industry that constitutes a welcoming harbor and nurturing environment solely for "housewives" (desperate or proverbial)”.
If you notice, your posting justifies that position. You give the impression that you only want to make a modest living, which falls directly into the category of "We are a little people, and like little people we think like little people" as the writer claims.
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I do not consider making an income that is better than most of my fellow liberal arts college grads to be "a modest living," nor do I consider making a living the puts me in the top 25% of wage earners a "modest living." But by the same token, no, I don't particularly strive for more than a "comfortable" (which to me is not the same thing as modest) living. Does that make me a housewifey "little people"? Perhaps. So be it.
| It is in the best interest of the agencies to side again with the translators (who are their only allies), to emphasize quality and to maintain a high level in the industry. If agencies continue to treat translations as "just another commodity", then the market will, of course, react accordingly… end-clients will buy their own TM and hire people, and most of agencies (regardless of size) will vanish, or will have to leave New York or Berlin (how can they afford it, if they’ re not making 200% profit?), and move to Albania and Arkansas. |
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I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing, but that's probably the subject of a different debate!
I do not think it's wise to attack a writer who is actually on our side (all of us). His remark about "housewives" (which I borrowed here), is not the best choice of words, but we all know what it implies... I do not know how many years you' ve been in the business, but this was a business in the past you know, not just a supplementary income, as you say (by the way, you too justify the writer's claim that a business has turned into a supplementary side-income). Would you ever have your translation business as the sole income source for your family? Probably not. The writer claims that in the past, that was normal. He's correct.
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I won't speak for Laura, but I have been freelancing for only a short while, and I already earn about 40% more than I did in my previous position as an in-house editor (I'm on target for right about the cited median gross among translators). I was the sole income source for my family back when I was making 20K less, so I would not hesitate to do so again on a translator's income. (And I live in the 5th most expensive metro area in the U.S.).
To reiterate: to cite an average income that puts the average US translator in the top 25% of income earners, and then claim that this a merely housewifely "pin money" job and not enough to support a household, smacks not of thinking big, but of a particular old-boy variety of elitism.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 05:45
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
| | Ladies and Gentlemen | Jun 24, 2008 |
The writer's e-mail address is there, to the left of the article. You don't need to reply to me. I didn't write that article.
Thank you very much
PS. Dear Kathryn:
Ten years ago, translators were making approximately 50% more with less hours of work. Right now, you' re living in the decline era of the "personal income of a professional translator". The money may seem good enough for you (it doesn't seem good enough for the people who have been more than 10 years in the business), but wait a couple more years and you'll join the club
You know what the problem is, in comparison to other employment? No resume building. Whatever we do in this business is so unique and isolated, that our resumes in the future will be worthless when it comes to "work experience" for the corporarate world ("I stayed at home translating stuff...").
The only idemnification was the price per word.
When we say that it used to be a "business", we mean that good professionals were making 140-180K (in 80's money - it was top 5%, not 25%). You' re probably making 60-70K now and you compare it to low and middle management salaried positions, and it looks good, indeed. Doesn't it alarm you that it has already gone to approximately half of what it was, in just 10 years? The writer of the article was comparing today's earnings to past earnings, not to other salaried positions.
This is not a salaried position and you get no promotions, insurance, pension programs, valuable experience for your resume, valuable business connections for future markets, social networks, employer-sponsored education, 401K doubled by the employer, opportunities for upper management and/or dealerships and entire departments, etc. None of that. It's just a highly outsourced craft, gradually replaced by computers, and widely abused by middlemen with "Enron" mentalities (lately). You don't enjoy any kind of protection here (even the hollywood writers have a strong union and went on strike recently, you know it). So, there's no comparison but to the past of this profession.
(currently, there are large agencies (they charge the end-client full price), that handle huge volumes of technical / medical texts where the pre-translated text from TMs was 10%, last year about 20-25% and this year, the huge jump to 50-55%, with the help of hungry young translators who did a lot of "almost volunteer work" to fix and edit texts in hope for a new client - care to predict five (5) years from now?). I know because I do project management and TM management as well, and I'm also guilty of organizing and assisiting two agencies to reach 70% TM matches in medical/pharmaceutical texts in volumes exceeding 1,2 million words in just six months, not to mention 300K words in material safety data sheets in just one month, with TM matches 92% with "modular" text that needs almost zero editing
So, look ahead, five years from now. It's not about the excitement "I was an employee and now I make more". Of course you make more. But it used to be 150, then 140, then 130, then 120... now it's about 70 or 80... it was top 5%, now it's top 25%, and in five years, due to the "balancing effect" of globalization, it'll go to it's destiny of "average". This applies to the agencies as well (especially the ones with high cost offices and aggressive marketing that forces them to change half the project managers every two weeks), which will have to share the pie with thousand others... you see, translation memories are becoming cheaper and cheaper and they' re not a privilege of few agencies and translators anymore...
Ladies and Gentlemen of this "no weekends craft", good luck to all!
Lefteris
[Edited at 2008-06-24 06:39]
| | | | Daina Jauntirans
United States
Local time: 05:45
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
| | Where did you get your statistics? | Jun 24, 2008 |
Eleftherios,
I am wondering where you got the statistics that translators used to regularly make 140-180K (presumably in US dollars)? I have been in the business for more than 10 years - OK, 11 as of this year! 13 if you count the years I was studying for my MA in Translation - and I don't recall those figures ever being thrown around. I am not saying no one does: some translators will make that much, of course, depending on their language combination, direction, text type, special qualifications, country of residence, etc. But I don't recall ever hearing about an average that high. Do you have another ATA survey or other data backing that up?
After reading the article, I have to agree with everything Kathryn says. I (as a woman) have supported a family of 3 and then 4 on income less than, equal to, and now more than the figures indicated in the article - all from translation. It's not pin money. Even the figure quoted in the article is above the median income in my relatively well-off suburb of Chicago.
Besides, as a freelance translator, if you are unhappy with your earnings, you are free to pursue continuing education, learn another language, learn additional technologies, find new clients, move to a different country, etc. etc. - this goes back to Damian's point earlier. Times have changed, the aspects of being an employee you list ("promotions, insurance, pension programs, valuable experience for your resume, valuable business connections for future markets, social networks, employer-sponsored education, 401K doubled by the employer, opportunities for upper management and/or dealerships and entire departments, etc.") are not really a reality for most salaried employees in the US anymore! Many salaried employees in the US don't even have health insurance anymore. I'm not saying times are easy, because they are not. But I'm happy to be a freelance translator and make what I want to happen happen for myself rather than relying on the false sense of security of an employer providing it for me - which they may or may not, or may stop doing at any time.
(currently, there are large agencies (they charge the end-client full price), that handle huge volumes of technical / medical texts where the pre-translated text from TMs was 10%, last year about 20-25% and this year, the huge jump to 50-55%, with the help of hungry young translators who did a lot of "almost volunteer work" to fix and edit texts in hope for a new client - care to predict five (5) years from now?). I know because I do project management and TM management as well, and I'm also guilty of organizing and assisiting two agencies to reach 70% TM matches in medical/pharmaceutical texts in volumes exceeding 1,2 million words in just six months, not to mention 300K words in material safety data sheets in just one month, with TM matches 92% with "modular" text that needs almost zero editing
How could the TM percentage keep increasing? It would for a while until translation is optimized for those repetitive texts, but then surely new products keep being released with documentation that requires fresh translations? And making material safety data sheets more consistent? Who wouldn't want that? I don't think that there is any problem with doing away with manual translation of highly repetitive texts (after all, that's what TMs are good for). People who want to make a living as translators have to focus on what humans are best at - the non-repetitive, expressive texts that can't be automated. Otherwise you're barking up the wrong tree.
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| | I don't buy these figures for a minute. | Jun 24, 2008 |
Eleftherios, I'd love to see you back up these statistics, and I'm interested to see if any other long-term translators agree.
I ran a quick inflation calculation - $140,000 in 1980 is equivalent to about $400,000 today. If translators were making that kind of cash, there would have been a run on the profession.
Assuming translation of 12,500 words a week for 48 weeks of the year, the going rate would have been around $0.68/word. Those kinds of rates may have existed, but even back in the good old days I can't imagine it was common. Alternatively, perhaps the cost of translation was so prohibitive that most people didn't bother.
I suspect today's market is far larger and more diverse than in the past - more information is being translated and shared across cultures. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
I'm just speculating, and I don't have time to do a ton of research at the moment. Even if this world existed in the past, it's long gone. The fact remains that even today a freelance translator can earn a very good living. The integrity of the profession is critical and there are certainly issues to be addressed, but wishing for a world filled with millionaire translators seems like a lost cause.
Just to add, I think Daina is exactly right, and I couldn't agree more.
[Edited at 2008-06-24 17:01]
| | | | Paul Lambert
Sweden
Local time: 12:45
Member (2006)
Swedish to English
+ ...
| | Daina is on the right track | Jun 24, 2008 |
I think your attitude is the most realistic one in how to approach the realities of our business. We have to make the most of whatever situation is thrown at us.
| | | | Bernie Bierman
United States
Local time: 06:45
Spanish to English
+ ...
| | Thank you all | Jun 25, 2008 |
I want to thank you all for your comments regarding my article, “Everything’s Comin’ Up Roses”. Your comments were most interesting, oftentimes instructive, extremely insightful (at least from my viewpoint) and generally entertaining. Some of you unfortunately did not read my words, or perhaps more accurately, the questions I asked, and rather read INTO them, and consequently ended up by shooting the messenger. But that goes with the territory of being a commentator. I would hope that some of you who pride yourselves on your open minds, will at some time return to the article and re-read it a bit more slowly and carefully.
The only comment which I felt was totally out of line was the one that issued from the pen of Nicole Schnell. However, I will not embarrass her by a public response (my response to her will be by private e-mail).
Finally, I would like to direct you to another article that touches on a subject that is closely related to one of the subjects I discuss in my article. The article is by Eileen B. Hennessy and can be accessed at
http://accurapid.com/journal/45image.htm
Once again, I thank you all for contributing to a very much needed and lively debate.
Bernie Bierman
P.S. Incidentally, for those of you not resident in the United States, “Desperate Housewives” is the name of a weekly television show syndicated throughout the country.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 12:45
 Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
| | Private e-mail removed | Jun 25, 2008 |
Hi all,
The posting containing a private e-mail was removed by the poster; since the subsequent postings discussing this (now hidden) posting were not directly related to the topic at hand, I have hidden those, too.
Back to topic... 
Best regards,
Ralf
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