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Great article on translator compensation in the United States
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Thread poster: RobinB

Great article on translator compensation in the United States

Steffen Walter

Germany
Local time: 05:22

Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...

Business from a (general) commercial not a legal/tax point of view

Jun 26, 2008

Tatty wrote:
If you are a freelancer in Spain, you don't have a company, you are a professional. Up until a few years ago we did have the status of a business, but that changed at some point about 2 years ago, and I believe it is the same throughout Europe. It would be interesting to know if a freelancer is a company in the US or if it is a tax-paying arrangement.

I don't quite follow you on this one. Corporate and tax law considerations aside, I think we've been talking about "business" in a general commercial (well, business, if you will) sense throughout this thread. In that sense, we do, or at least should, run a business indeed, even as independent professionals/freelancers.

As to your other comments, I do agree with Ralf (and Kevin), who've said that you were too much into doom and gloom indeed...

My 2c worth,
Steffen

Tatty

Spain
Local time: 05:22
Spanish to English
+ ...

We should keep it between ourselves then

Jun 26, 2008

OK, you can talk about your "business" if you wish, in a commercial sense. But if you go around saying that you'll soon be told that you don't actually have one.

Doom and gloom, I do-don't have a business, the subject of the debate is the bottom line, which equates to reality. Or do we have an issue dealing with reality?

My point really was that becoming a translating makes better sense, from an economic point of view, as a second career. You would already have a specialisation, and if you worked mainly within your specialisation your language skills wouldn't need to be as developed. And given that you have a strong specialisation you could command higher rates.

Mervyn Henderson

Spain
Local time: 05:22

Member
Spanish to English
+ ...

Oh yes I do

Jun 26, 2008

... have a business, I mean.

The authorities in the Spanish State or Ireland can qualify my operation any way they like on any little bit of paper they like, but I certainly DO have a business. I have a business that keeps me busy, and that business business allows me to pay them business taxes on all the business, and also to spend the dosh from my business business on other busy-busy businesses. I know full well what I have. I'm minding my own business.

Mervyn

Tatty

Spain
Local time: 05:22
Spanish to English
+ ...

Definitions?

Jun 26, 2008

Translators who don't like definitions... or maybe only when it suits them (another instance of inconsistency in approach). Tax types don't seem to hold any sway. We are rolling round to the whole reality thing again.

Steffen Walter

Germany
Local time: 05:22

Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...

Killing business by definitions?

Jun 26, 2008

Tatty wrote:
Translators who don't like definitions... or maybe only when it suits them (another instance of inconsistency in approach). Tax types don't seem to hold any sway. We are rolling round to the whole reality thing again.

But a business is a business is a business, as Mervyn so eloquently demonstrated - and we all have a business to run, otherwise we shouldn't be in the translation business in the first place

Where do you see the "inconsistency", by the way?

Curiously,
Steffen

Mervyn Henderson

Spain
Local time: 05:22

Member
Spanish to English
+ ...

Tax types

Jun 26, 2008

Am I beginning to lose the thread of the thread here? Seriously, is it just me? I've been looking through the lot of it again, but I can't figure out the "tax types" thing.

"We are rolling round to the whole reality thing again?" We are, are we? Sounds like a line by Marianne Faithfull after a night on the naughty tobacco.

Mervyn

KSL Berlin

Germany
Local time: 05:22
German to English

Completely daft

Jun 26, 2008

Tatty wrote:
... I don't think that there is any point in aiming to be a translator in life, it really isn't worth it, not for the effort or the money you spend on training.

What money would that be? I don't recall having incurred such costs.

Tatty wrote:
Based on my experience in England, I have also found it to be true that once you only have freelance translation work on your CV or that is all you have done for the past few years that employers or employment agencies are very unwilling, or simply refuse, to consider you as a candidate for a position within a company. So you have pretty much worked yourself into a rut too.

On the whole, I think Germans are even more persnickety about resumés than the Brits, and I haven't found that freelance work has been a barrier to a possible re-entry into the job market at all despite being of an age where many people consider me too old to be on a company's management board. (Seriously - some idiot in the state employment office told me that when I was 40!) Yet I have been offered several positions in the six years I've been freelancing full time, all of which I have politely declined, because I prefer the flexibility and the opportunity to take full advantage of the tax possibilities that an independent business provides. I am not the only one who has found a re-entry into "regular" employment to be a possibility if desired; my ex-wife, who is several years older, was a freelance translator for years and recently found a salaried job when she decided she wanted things to be more "orderly". Before coming to Germany I was independent (owned my own business) for more than a decade, and I often heard the same daft cant about what a hindrance that would be if I wanted a "real" job, but it took me all of two weeks to find one when I decided to practice being a wage slave again for a while before my move to Germany.

Nobody is going to make it easy for you except you yourself. If you can articulate what your skills are and relate them to the requirements of a desired position, chances are you can get that position. Don't wimp out at the first negative response and slink off with your tail between your legs. Successful freelance translators must practice good project planning skills, work with a variety of technologies in an integrated manner, etc. Weave a compelling story out of what you do and you can get quite a few places with it.

N.M. Eklund

France
Local time: 05:22

Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...

the business of perception

Jun 26, 2008

sorry for the long post, I got on a roll...

Tatty wrote:
And once you have gone down the path this far you cannot transfer into another area, because everyone you show your CV to sees a translator

This is unfortunately the problem with a lot of translators who, alone in front of their computers, perceive themselves as lone mercenaries for hire for one mission at a time. The difference between those translators, and the 'Business' translators mentionned by Steffen, Mervyn and the others, is that the latter are heading a thriving business complete with clients, suppliers, budgets, project management, occasionally team management, marketing, publicity, business projections, statistical analysis, continued training, communication, etc. etc. etc. (the equivalent of a General if I continue my military comparison).

There's no better experience of the business world than working as a freelancer/contractor. We do everything from the most menial to the most crucial; and we learn hands on every aspect necessary for a business to be successful and to thrive.

As for your CV, maybe you should rewrite it, because if you stop at Freelance Translator, then you're selling yourself short.

Here's a list of skillsets used by successful 'Business' translators:
- experience in a leadership position (leading a project with co-translators);
- a palpable excitement and passion for your business mission; (we gotta love what we do)
- financial and operational acumen; (that's just business)
- direct experience with budget and P&L responsibilities; (a necessary evil)
- proven skills developing and implementing strategy and business plans; (setting up and developing a succesful translation business locally and even internationally)
- well-rounded experience in partnership development, and marketing; (Networking through Proz and using the internet to reach our clients, to start with)
- experience working with a variety of contacts in various positions and different industries; (heck, some of us even have experience dealing with governing bodies - now that's a skill)
- strong public relations skills coupled with the ability to work with diverse groups and perspectives
- Operations & Sales & Sales Management Skills (how else do you get and keep your clients)
- Strong Leadership & Communication skills
- Financial Management Skills.
- Self-starter who can work well with autonomy.
- Professional who can interface successfully with a corporation.
- Thrive with performance driven compensation.
- Honesty & Integrity
- Proven track record of professional growth
- International experience (of course)

Of course the last few repeat the first few a bit....but there's a good reason for that .... I copied these skillsets/qualities word for word directly from a job recuitment website seeking a company President and Director.

And I know for a fact that many companies recognize these values because I, like Kevin, have turned down a few management positions so I can continue being my own boss.
The translation profession is well worth it, but you can't expect to just sit back on your heels and the documents will flow in.
The first thing you need to do is change your perception of yourself, and then the rest falls into place.
That's business ....

Paula James

Spain
Local time: 05:22

Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...

not just the money

Jun 26, 2008

Firstly, I just wanted to say that possibly translation doesn't make as much economic sense as some other jobs, but I didn't get into it just for money. If that was my only concern I would have become a stockbroker or something. I count myself as really lucky to have found something I love doing, without having to deal with company politics. The fact that I make a pretty good living out of it (within a couple of years) is just an extra bonus to me. I don't think doctors, solicitors or accountants have it any easier, I would imagine they invest more time and money into their careers than I have, and they certainly have to work 5 days a week at least at the start. I think pretty much anyone making a lot of money and being successful works very hard, except for a few flukes and heirs.
I know there are costs, of course, but translators also have low outlays compared to lots of other "freelance" occupations, not needing separate premises, materials, etc. (I know some designers/artists and it is far more difficult!).

I definitely agree that business sense is really important in translation, I know some wonderful linguists who would be terrible freelancers.
I know things aren't always easy, but I feel very fortunate to be in the position I'm in.

Laura Tridico

United States

Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...

I think this post is taking a refreshing turn...

Jun 26, 2008

So many posts lament about the direction of the industry. No career is perfect, but with a business-oriented mindset and a strategic outlook, there is success to be found.

I love the N.M. Eklund's post on marketing yourself. Too many people think they've been put in a box, where in fact they've built a box around themselves. Finding a new position is like anything in business - its all about marketing yourself. But first, you've got to believe you have something to offer.

Eleftherios Kritikakis

United States
Local time: 22:22

Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...

Celebrate income reductions?

Jun 27, 2008

If Henry, the proz founder was thinking the same way as most writers in this posting, then his goal would have been to just cover his expenses and a little more, and the proz membership would have been $5 per person (this way, with 20,000 members, he would be making $100,000 per year... which, for the writers here, is excellent and Henry should be ecstatic – so Henry, why aren’t you ecstatic with 100K? Why do you want more boy?).
Maybe Henry's making 20,000 x $100 = 2,000,000 per year, in which case I congratulate him and envy him.
Apparently, he had different goals, and when some people said to him "I cannot afford the membership", he did NOT lower it. I agree with him as a businessman. He made us all pay $100 each, and if he raises it by 10%, we'll still pay it, right? (it's only ten bucks). These ten bucks mean 20,000 x $10 = $200,000 additional income for Henry (assuming 20,000 paid members). That's business. Henry has a spine and is particularly strong.
If more sites pop-up, they’ll be around $100 too. They have no reason to lower it to let’s say… (how much would a translator lower it… perhaps down to $10).

Henry doesn't lower rates for the residents of poor countries either. SDL/Trados and other software companies do not lower rates for translators in poor countries.

I wonder, if I fly someone to Chicago at my expense, and show them invoices and receipts of $108,000 for 2006 and $119,000 for 2007, will the rest believe, at least, that I must have a serious reason, and some insight, to agree with the ones who ring warning bells? The present may be good for the established, reliable and networked, but the future doesn't look so peachy for the same, or everyone else. For serious reasons.

Finally, without wanting to insult anyone, I'll say to N.M Eklund that in the United States you can't use these vague high-school statements in your resume without actual presence and corporate achievements to support them. As a matter of fact, they' ll ask you directly "what can you actually do?". There's not even one (1) of these things that can give you anything more than a secretarial job for minimum salary. It's a list that anyone could compile, and most companies avoid such bla-bla without actual achievements, proven record of work history and references. In the United States, they'll tell you "so, bottom line, you' re a translator who's dealing with some issues some times... big deal!".
I've spent 12 years in the corporate world both in Greece and the United States. Serious corporate world (major financial companies).

Let me put it in simple terms: Guys, I'm not going to talk about working 14 hours per day and having very few friends left (or weekends - that's why I'm moving next month), I'm talking about so many middlemen in the business, and so many people willing to lower rates for everyone (it's a trend), that the situation is not as peachy as you think, and it's getting worse every month. Even large agencies have limited budgets nowadays, just because of more and more middlemen (agencies of agencies, people who just forward emails and make money), and if the translators are willing to sacrifice even more, the end-client will still pay the same (increases every year) but there will be just more middlemen. A key employee of one the top ten U.S. agencies showed me, when I visited him (old friend), the trail of middlemen. 3 or 4 on average for more than half the projects.
You' re not helping anyone by lowering rates without a reason. You' re not helping the end-client and in many cases you' re not helping the agency either. You' re just providing more room for more middlemen, who hurt legitimate agencies and translators.

End of story for me. At least for me, end of discussion. I've never seen so many people "celebrating" the reduction of their income with peachy statements on the basis of "in my previous job I was paid less". I propose we all drop the subject before we all slip more into the paranoia of that "celebration of steady decline". It's not worth it, it's summer. What the heck, I'll go to the lake for the weekend.

Thank you

PS. "I have tons of editors in my system from Greece to edit it for $20". The statement, today, for a 1,500 word project. $20. That's 14 euros. For thorough editing of 2 hours, that's 7 euros per hour. Not bad... anybody want a beer?

[Edited at 2008-06-27 02:25]

Rossa O'Muireartaigh
Ireland
Local time: 04:22

Member (2004)
Japanese to English

The economics of translation

Jun 27, 2008

Economically, a general lowering of rates for translators does not make sense.

There will always be businesses that need translations like they need electricity or running water. It is essential to their functioning. However, the fact that to become a translator you need to learn/know another language means that there is naturally a high entry-barrier to the translation supply market (i.e. translators). Translators are always a limited resource and all the CAT tools in the world cannot change this. However, there is no such barrier to setting up an agency. Anyone with a computer and a phone could do so in the morning. This means that agencies (and in effect the end clients) are competing for a limited pool of translators. Agencies that squeeze translators too much are simply not going to be able to find translators as their pool of translators will (in theory anyway) have moved on to nicer agencies.

We also have to consider whether the stagnant nature of the per word rates for translators exists because translators are able to produce more work more quickly nowadays with IT assistance. In the 1980s translators probably would have needed to consult a room full of weighty references, take trips to libraries, post-offices and so on. These action would have taken up a lot of time and have reduced output per hour.

Another point is that the figures given here for average ATA incomes may be skewed if the profile of ATA membership has changed. If the ATA in the 1980s has a smaller, more core elite membership than today, this may explain the reduction in gross income. (I don’t know this, it is a possibility.)

Andrew Steel

Spain
Local time: 05:22
Spanish to English

Two broad schools of thought

Jun 27, 2008

From the comments here, and from similar discussions repeated ad infinitum elsewhere, translators tend to fall into one of two broad schools of thought:

a) Translation as a profession is great because it pays enough to live on, offers enormous flexibility and is varied and often stimulating. What's more, global demand for translation is booming and it's easy to get a part of it.

b) Translation as a profession is heading towards a crisis because free-lance translators and agencies are forever selling themselves short, often unknowingly, and are failing to take full advantage of the opportunities available, which is spoiling things for the rest.

From what I've seen, these two attitudes are irreconcilable, with Group A accusing Group B of being inflexible, avaricious old-timers living in the past and Group B berating Group A for their naivety, lack of foresight and lack of true professionalism.

Perhaps we need to ask ourselves how we view the translation profession at present and in the future. Is it:

a) Simply reasonably well-paid (for the moment) piece-work that can be done from the comfort of your own home or even, supposedly, from beneath a palm tree on a beach anywhere in the world? Or is it:

b) A profession on an equal footing with law, medicine, accountancy, architecture, etc. that should be practised with similar diligence (and receive comparable compensation, status, etc.) and in which, naturally, there is no room for amateurs and opportunists?

Maybe we should start a poll...

Anyway, we each know which school of thought we currently adhere to and, as I said, so far neither group has managed to dominate the discourse within the profession.

It'll be interesting to see how things stand in 5 years' time...

Andrew

[Edited at 2008-06-27 09:04]

Paula James

Spain
Local time: 05:22

Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...

not so clearly divided

Jun 27, 2008

I just want to highlight that I don't agree that translation is just "piecework" that can be done from beneath a palm tree. I also have major issues with the lowering of prices.
I rarely accept work from the country where I live, because of low prices, I try to be professional, well-trained etc. I am forever offending people who speak two languages reasonably well who want to become translators by telling them that it's not just about sitting in front of your computer in your living room typing, and they need to do some training, etc.
It just so happens I love what I do, and think there is some market for quality work. I also think it's an important point that with the internet translation is a faster proces, you don't need to go to the library to research, so things have changed.
Regarding the similarity with other professions, I personally believe all translators should have some kind of qualification, as even though there are clearly good translators without, it would create a bit more professionalism and respect, and make people more confident in their demands. Until this is the case, I don't see how we can equate it with law or medecine, where there are rigorous study and training programmes in place. I'm not sure how this can be achieved really, but I can't help thinking it's essential to make our profession more respected and to be able to claim those higher rates. I know there are people on here without translation qualifications, and I have no doubt they're good at what they do, but without some kid of regulation, the market doesn't appear very professional.

KSL Berlin

Germany
Local time: 05:22
German to English

What is a professional?

Jun 27, 2008

Paula James wrote:
Regarding the similarity with other professions, I personally believe all translators should have some kind of qualification, as even though there are clearly good translators without, it would create a bit more professionalism and respect, and make people more confident in their demands. Until this is the case, I don't see how we can equate it with law or medecine [sic], where there are rigorous study and training programmes in place. I'm not sure how this can be achieved really, but I can't help thinking it's essential to make our profession more respected and to be able to claim those higher rates.

Medicine keeps getting brought up in this discussion, but though doctors at the top of the profession earn quite well, in Germany at least a lot of them scrape by on earnings I wouldn't get out of bed for. Some attorneys earn astronomical amounts of money, but I don't think that can be said for public prosecutors or the many good attorneys who represent ordinary folk for ordinary matters. I think a business-oriented translator can keep pace with the earnings of many of these other professionals, and there is always the path open of activity as an outsourcer/agent/project manager for those who want to pursue the upper end of the revenue possibilities.

Nobody is spoiling my game by selling their services cheaper than I do. Yesterday I had a good laugh when an outsourcer contacted me with a rush job at half my bottom rate and I countered with a 50% surcharge to my usual rate. I "lost" the bid when it was dumped at a slightly higher price through a subsequent ProZ posting, but during the hour between my response and the answer from the outsourcer I took on a bigger job at about the same premium rate (and the client was prepared to pay more). Let the bottom trawlers take whatever little fish are willing to get caught in their dumping price nets. Quality has a price, and if you pursue that price with a reasonable business approach and also explain your professional services in the same way a good doctor or attorney explains a recommendation to a patient or client, you will get that price. Not every time, but often enough to prove the validity of your business model.

I've seldom noticed any lack of respect for the profession of translation, though a lack of understanding of the need for real professional services rather than the efforts of students or multi-lingual secretaries is fairly common. If you have more to offer than these "providers" - if you really do - then you can make a case for why your services are better and cost more. If you don't want to or can't, that's OK too... you have a right to make a living in whatever niche you choose, and it is very unlikely that your choice will affect me or the successful business-oriented translators I know in any way. There's room enough in the market for all of us. As for Andrew's option (a): that's an aspect all of us are free to enjoy, even if we are otherwise hardcore in our business approach. You can keep your beach, though. I'll take a fishing pole and a nice canal full of carp.