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| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | | User | Thread poster: RobinB Great article on translator compensation in the United States |
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Mervyn Henderson 
Spain
Local time: 13:25
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
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Am I beginning to lose the thread of the thread here? Seriously, is it just me? I've been looking through the lot of it again, but I can't figure out the "tax types" thing.
"We are rolling round to the whole reality thing again?" We are, are we? Sounds like a line by Marianne Faithfull after a night on the naughty tobacco.
Mervyn
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Germany
Local time: 13:25
 Member (2003)
German to English
| | Completely daft | Jun 26, 2008 |
Tatty wrote:
... I don't think that there is any point in aiming to be a translator in life, it really isn't worth it, not for the effort or the money you spend on training.
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What money would that be? I don't recall having incurred such costs.
Tatty wrote:
Based on my experience in England, I have also found it to be true that once you only have freelance translation work on your CV or that is all you have done for the past few years that employers or employment agencies are very unwilling, or simply refuse, to consider you as a candidate for a position within a company. So you have pretty much worked yourself into a rut too. |
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On the whole, I think Germans are even more persnickety about resumés than the Brits, and I haven't found that freelance work has been a barrier to a possible re-entry into the job market at all despite being of an age where many people consider me too old to be on a company's management board. (Seriously - some idiot in the state employment office told me that when I was 40!) Yet I have been offered several positions in the six years I've been freelancing full time, all of which I have politely declined, because I prefer the flexibility and the opportunity to take full advantage of the tax possibilities that an independent business provides. I am not the only one who has found a re-entry into "regular" employment to be a possibility if desired; my ex-wife, who is several years older, was a freelance translator for years and recently found a salaried job when she decided she wanted things to be more "orderly". Before coming to Germany I was independent (owned my own business) for more than a decade, and I often heard the same daft cant about what a hindrance that would be if I wanted a "real" job, but it took me all of two weeks to find one when I decided to practice being a wage slave again for a while before my move to Germany.
Nobody is going to make it easy for you except you yourself. If you can articulate what your skills are and relate them to the requirements of a desired position, chances are you can get that position. Don't wimp out at the first negative response and slink off with your tail between your legs. Successful freelance translators must practice good project planning skills, work with a variety of technologies in an integrated manner, etc. Weave a compelling story out of what you do and you can get quite a few places with it.
  | | | | N.M. Eklund
France
Local time: 13:25
Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...
| | the business of perception | Jun 26, 2008 |
sorry for the long post, I got on a roll...
Tatty wrote:
And once you have gone down the path this far you cannot transfer into another area, because everyone you show your CV to sees a translator |
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This is unfortunately the problem with a lot of translators who, alone in front of their computers, perceive themselves as lone mercenaries for hire for one mission at a time. The difference between those translators, and the 'Business' translators mentionned by Steffen, Mervyn and the others, is that the latter are heading a thriving business complete with clients, suppliers, budgets, project management, occasionally team management, marketing, publicity, business projections, statistical analysis, continued training, communication, etc. etc. etc. (the equivalent of a General if I continue my military comparison).
There's no better experience of the business world than working as a freelancer/contractor. We do everything from the most menial to the most crucial; and we learn hands on every aspect necessary for a business to be successful and to thrive.
As for your CV, maybe you should rewrite it, because if you stop at Freelance Translator, then you're selling yourself short.
Here's a list of skillsets used by successful 'Business' translators:
- experience in a leadership position (leading a project with co-translators);
- a palpable excitement and passion for your business mission; (we gotta love what we do)
- financial and operational acumen; (that's just business)
- direct experience with budget and P&L responsibilities; (a necessary evil)
- proven skills developing and implementing strategy and business plans; (setting up and developing a succesful translation business locally and even internationally)
- well-rounded experience in partnership development, and marketing; (Networking through Proz and using the internet to reach our clients, to start with)
- experience working with a variety of contacts in various positions and different industries; (heck, some of us even have experience dealing with governing bodies - now that's a skill)
- strong public relations skills coupled with the ability to work with diverse groups and perspectives
- Operations & Sales & Sales Management Skills (how else do you get and keep your clients)
- Strong Leadership & Communication skills
- Financial Management Skills.
- Self-starter who can work well with autonomy.
- Professional who can interface successfully with a corporation.
- Thrive with performance driven compensation.
- Honesty & Integrity
- Proven track record of professional growth
- International experience (of course)
Of course the last few repeat the first few a bit....but there's a good reason for that .... I copied these skillsets/qualities word for word directly from a job recuitment website seeking a company President and Director.
And I know for a fact that many companies recognize these values because I, like Kevin, have turned down a few management positions so I can continue being my own boss.
The translation profession is well worth it, but you can't expect to just sit back on your heels and the documents will flow in.
The first thing you need to do is change your perception of yourself, and then the rest falls into place.
That's business .... 
| | | | Paula James
Spain
Local time: 13:25
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| | not just the money | Jun 26, 2008 |
Firstly, I just wanted to say that possibly translation doesn't make as much economic sense as some other jobs, but I didn't get into it just for money. If that was my only concern I would have become a stockbroker or something. I count myself as really lucky to have found something I love doing, without having to deal with company politics. The fact that I make a pretty good living out of it (within a couple of years) is just an extra bonus to me. I don't think doctors, solicitors or accountants have it any easier, I would imagine they invest more time and money into their careers than I have, and they certainly have to work 5 days a week at least at the start. I think pretty much anyone making a lot of money and being successful works very hard, except for a few flukes and heirs.
I know there are costs, of course, but translators also have low outlays compared to lots of other "freelance" occupations, not needing separate premises, materials, etc. (I know some designers/artists and it is far more difficult!).
I definitely agree that business sense is really important in translation, I know some wonderful linguists who would be terrible freelancers.
I know things aren't always easy, but I feel very fortunate to be in the position I'm in.
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| | I think this post is taking a refreshing turn... | Jun 26, 2008 |
So many posts lament about the direction of the industry. No career is perfect, but with a business-oriented mindset and a strategic outlook, there is success to be found.
I love the N.M. Eklund's post on marketing yourself. Too many people think they've been put in a box, where in fact they've built a box around themselves. Finding a new position is like anything in business - its all about marketing yourself. But first, you've got to believe you have something to offer.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 06:25
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
| | Celebrate income reductions? | Jun 27, 2008 |
If Henry, the proz founder was thinking the same way as most writers in this posting, then his goal would have been to just cover his expenses and a little more, and the proz membership would have been $5 per person (this way, with 20,000 members, he would be making $100,000 per year... which, for the writers here, is excellent and Henry should be ecstatic – so Henry, why aren’t you ecstatic with 100K? Why do you want more boy?).
Maybe Henry's making 20,000 x $100 = 2,000,000 per year, in which case I congratulate him and envy him.
Apparently, he had different goals, and when some people said to him "I cannot afford the membership", he did NOT lower it. I agree with him as a businessman. He made us all pay $100 each, and if he raises it by 10%, we'll still pay it, right? (it's only ten bucks). These ten bucks mean 20,000 x $10 = $200,000 additional income for Henry (assuming 20,000 paid members). That's business. Henry has a spine and is particularly strong.
If more sites pop-up, they’ll be around $100 too. They have no reason to lower it to let’s say… (how much would a translator lower it… perhaps down to $10).
Henry doesn't lower rates for the residents of poor countries either. SDL/Trados and other software companies do not lower rates for translators in poor countries.
I wonder, if I fly someone to Chicago at my expense, and show them invoices and receipts of $108,000 for 2006 and $119,000 for 2007, will the rest believe, at least, that I must have a serious reason, and some insight, to agree with the ones who ring warning bells? The present may be good for the established, reliable and networked, but the future doesn't look so peachy for the same, or everyone else. For serious reasons.
Finally, without wanting to insult anyone, I'll say to N.M Eklund that in the United States you can't use these vague high-school statements in your resume without actual presence and corporate achievements to support them. As a matter of fact, they' ll ask you directly "what can you actually do?". There's not even one (1) of these things that can give you anything more than a secretarial job for minimum salary. It's a list that anyone could compile, and most companies avoid such bla-bla without actual achievements, proven record of work history and references. In the United States, they'll tell you "so, bottom line, you' re a translator who's dealing with some issues some times... big deal!".
I've spent 12 years in the corporate world both in Greece and the United States. Serious corporate world (major financial companies).
Let me put it in simple terms: Guys, I'm not going to talk about working 14 hours per day and having very few friends left (or weekends - that's why I'm moving next month), I'm talking about so many middlemen in the business, and so many people willing to lower rates for everyone (it's a trend), that the situation is not as peachy as you think, and it's getting worse every month. Even large agencies have limited budgets nowadays, just because of more and more middlemen (agencies of agencies, people who just forward emails and make money), and if the translators are willing to sacrifice even more, the end-client will still pay the same (increases every year) but there will be just more middlemen. A key employee of one the top ten U.S. agencies showed me, when I visited him (old friend), the trail of middlemen. 3 or 4 on average for more than half the projects.
You' re not helping anyone by lowering rates without a reason. You' re not helping the end-client and in many cases you' re not helping the agency either. You' re just providing more room for more middlemen, who hurt legitimate agencies and translators.
End of story for me. At least for me, end of discussion. I've never seen so many people "celebrating" the reduction of their income with peachy statements on the basis of "in my previous job I was paid less". I propose we all drop the subject before we all slip more into the paranoia of that "celebration of steady decline". It's not worth it, it's summer. What the heck, I'll go to the lake for the weekend.
Thank you
PS. "I have tons of editors in my system from Greece to edit it for $20". The statement, today, for a 1,500 word project. $20. That's 14 euros. For thorough editing of 2 hours, that's 7 euros per hour. Not bad... anybody want a beer?
[Edited at 2008-06-27 02:25]
| | | | Rossa O'Muireartaigh
Ireland
Local time: 12:25
Member (2004)
Japanese to English
| | The economics of translation | Jun 27, 2008 |
Economically, a general lowering of rates for translators does not make sense.
There will always be businesses that need translations like they need electricity or running water. It is essential to their functioning. However, the fact that to become a translator you need to learn/know another language means that there is naturally a high entry-barrier to the translation supply market (i.e. translators). Translators are always a limited resource and all the CAT tools in the world cannot change this. However, there is no such barrier to setting up an agency. Anyone with a computer and a phone could do so in the morning. This means that agencies (and in effect the end clients) are competing for a limited pool of translators. Agencies that squeeze translators too much are simply not going to be able to find translators as their pool of translators will (in theory anyway) have moved on to nicer agencies.
We also have to consider whether the stagnant nature of the per word rates for translators exists because translators are able to produce more work more quickly nowadays with IT assistance. In the 1980s translators probably would have needed to consult a room full of weighty references, take trips to libraries, post-offices and so on. These action would have taken up a lot of time and have reduced output per hour.
Another point is that the figures given here for average ATA incomes may be skewed if the profile of ATA membership has changed. If the ATA in the 1980s has a smaller, more core elite membership than today, this may explain the reduction in gross income. (I don’t know this, it is a possibility.)
| | | | Andrew Steel
Spain
Local time: 13:25
Spanish to English
| | Two broad schools of thought | Jun 27, 2008 |
From the comments here, and from similar discussions repeated ad infinitum elsewhere, translators tend to fall into one of two broad schools of thought:
a) Translation as a profession is great because it pays enough to live on, offers enormous flexibility and is varied and often stimulating. What's more, global demand for translation is booming and it's easy to get a part of it.
b) Translation as a profession is heading towards a crisis because free-lance translators and agencies are forever selling themselves short, often unknowingly, and are failing to take full advantage of the opportunities available, which is spoiling things for the rest.
From what I've seen, these two attitudes are irreconcilable, with Group A accusing Group B of being inflexible, avaricious old-timers living in the past and Group B berating Group A for their naivety, lack of foresight and lack of true professionalism.
Perhaps we need to ask ourselves how we view the translation profession at present and in the future. Is it:
a) Simply reasonably well-paid (for the moment) piece-work that can be done from the comfort of your own home or even, supposedly, from beneath a palm tree on a beach anywhere in the world? Or is it:
b) A profession on an equal footing with law, medicine, accountancy, architecture, etc. that should be practised with similar diligence (and receive comparable compensation, status, etc.) and in which, naturally, there is no room for amateurs and opportunists?
Maybe we should start a poll... 
Anyway, we each know which school of thought we currently adhere to and, as I said, so far neither group has managed to dominate the discourse within the profession.
It'll be interesting to see how things stand in 5 years' time...
Andrew
[Edited at 2008-06-27 09:04]
| | | | Paula James
Spain
Local time: 13:25
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| | not so clearly divided | Jun 27, 2008 |
I just want to highlight that I don't agree that translation is just "piecework" that can be done from beneath a palm tree. I also have major issues with the lowering of prices.
I rarely accept work from the country where I live, because of low prices, I try to be professional, well-trained etc. I am forever offending people who speak two languages reasonably well who want to become translators by telling them that it's not just about sitting in front of your computer in your living room typing, and they need to do some training, etc.
It just so happens I love what I do, and think there is some market for quality work. I also think it's an important point that with the internet translation is a faster proces, you don't need to go to the library to research, so things have changed.
Regarding the similarity with other professions, I personally believe all translators should have some kind of qualification, as even though there are clearly good translators without, it would create a bit more professionalism and respect, and make people more confident in their demands. Until this is the case, I don't see how we can equate it with law or medecine, where there are rigorous study and training programmes in place. I'm not sure how this can be achieved really, but I can't help thinking it's essential to make our profession more respected and to be able to claim those higher rates. I know there are people on here without translation qualifications, and I have no doubt they're good at what they do, but without some kid of regulation, the market doesn't appear very professional.
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Germany
Local time: 13:25
Member (2003)
German to English
| | What is a professional? | Jun 27, 2008 |
Paula James wrote:
Regarding the similarity with other professions, I personally believe all translators should have some kind of qualification, as even though there are clearly good translators without, it would create a bit more professionalism and respect, and make people more confident in their demands. Until this is the case, I don't see how we can equate it with law or medecine [sic], where there are rigorous study and training programmes in place. I'm not sure how this can be achieved really, but I can't help thinking it's essential to make our profession more respected and to be able to claim those higher rates.
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Medicine keeps getting brought up in this discussion, but though doctors at the top of the profession earn quite well, in Germany at least a lot of them scrape by on earnings I wouldn't get out of bed for. Some attorneys earn astronomical amounts of money, but I don't think that can be said for public prosecutors or the many good attorneys who represent ordinary folk for ordinary matters. I think a business-oriented translator can keep pace with the earnings of many of these other professionals, and there is always the path open of activity as an outsourcer/agent/project manager for those who want to pursue the upper end of the revenue possibilities.
Nobody is spoiling my game by selling their services cheaper than I do. Yesterday I had a good laugh when an outsourcer contacted me with a rush job at half my bottom rate and I countered with a 50% surcharge to my usual rate. I "lost" the bid when it was dumped at a slightly higher price through a subsequent ProZ posting, but during the hour between my response and the answer from the outsourcer I took on a bigger job at about the same premium rate (and the client was prepared to pay more). Let the bottom trawlers take whatever little fish are willing to get caught in their dumping price nets. Quality has a price, and if you pursue that price with a reasonable business approach and also explain your professional services in the same way a good doctor or attorney explains a recommendation to a patient or client, you will get that price. Not every time, but often enough to prove the validity of your business model.
I've seldom noticed any lack of respect for the profession of translation, though a lack of understanding of the need for real professional services rather than the efforts of students or multi-lingual secretaries is fairly common. If you have more to offer than these "providers" - if you really do - then you can make a case for why your services are better and cost more. If you don't want to or can't, that's OK too... you have a right to make a living in whatever niche you choose, and it is very unlikely that your choice will affect me or the successful business-oriented translators I know in any way. There's room enough in the market for all of us. As for Andrew's option (a): that's an aspect all of us are free to enjoy, even if we are otherwise hardcore in our business approach. You can keep your beach, though. I'll take a fishing pole and a nice canal full of carp.
| | | | Mervyn Henderson
Spain
Local time: 13:25
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
| | Kevin's "lost" bid | Jun 27, 2008 |
I am with Kevin, but would further add that we have no need to "explain" anything. Once we start explaining and justifying ourselves, we call up our traditional inferiority complex and start to move ourselves into the customer's natural price-lowering territory. In the same way as a coffee costs X euros and nobody asks the person making the coffee to make it a little cheaper, that is our price.
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Germany
Local time: 13:25
Member (2003)
German to English
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Mervyn Henderson wrote:
I am with Kevin, but would further add that we have no need to "explain" anything. Once we start explaining and justifying ourselves, we call up our traditional inferiority complex and start to move ourselves into the customer's natural price-lowering territory. In the same way as a coffee costs X euros and nobody asks the person making the coffee to make it a little cheaper, that is our price. |
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It depends. What I mean by "explaining" is to make very clear what the customer will get for his/her money. Relevant experience might be cited (for example, that the chemical synthesis will be translated by a qualified chemist, not a linguist with a chemical dictionary and an "A" in high school chemistry 20 years ago). The fact that proofreading by a second qualified translator, often a specialist for a particular subject, is included may be relevant. For scanned documents, it may be attractive to the customer to know that I can include an editable source document with my delivery to replace a "lost" original and facilitate future revisions (which, of course, I am available to translate). And so on. Each job is unique, and the combination of services relevant to that job, including options, should be outlined clearly in many cases. (This is also my way of making sure I haven't forgotten anything.)
If I just say "this is my price, basta!" with no further explanation of what I intend to deliver and what else I may be able to provide, then I invite unproductive price comparisons. You can bet the big agencies out there (whom I am probably not permitted to name) justify their prices by blathering on about all the "value-added service" they provide. So what if it's often BS? They get away with it, and that is what upsets our Greek friend and others in this thread. So we play the same game and state very honestly why the end customer is better off with us. Or if we are dealing with an agency, why our high rate is really cheaper in the end because our work requires less revision, the terminologies we provide build customer loyalty or whatever. This is a business, and as with any business, many people read things into price differences, and you may want to exercise some honest influence over their interpretations. Something else to consider: sometimes on the "high end", a ridiculously high price can be perceived as the ability to provide better quality. I'm sure a few of us can name examples of jobs lost by us or others because our bids were too low. Just today I was kicking myself over the fact that I had signed a contract with a major client for a very comfortable rate only to discover that he thought he had signed the contract for 50% more (at about the level a number of people have suggested we should be charging). The point is: this is a business, and we need to be flexible and aware of the market and its potential. There is a lot more potential in this market than even most of the successful translators are aware of or have the energy to deal with.
| | | | Paula James
Spain
Local time: 13:26
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| | I agree, Kevin | Jun 27, 2008 |
Sorry, I see now I wasn't very clear. I don't think doctors or lawyers are necessarily paid spectularly well, especially for the amount of training and hard work they have to put in at the start. I was really referring back to other people who were saying they wanted the same conditions, I was trying to say that I don't think the professions can be compared, they are so very different.
By lack of respect, I was meaning the same as you, in that people don't seem to understand the need for actual professionals (I get frequent requests to help out "friends of friends" who have seen I have lots of work and have decided they want to be translators too, as they've learnt Spanish from living in Spain). Quite a few people don't seem to understand I'm not an English teacher, or don't understand why I don't teach English, assuming it must be a better job. Also, there are those on here who seem to think translation is a housewife's job etc.
It doesn't worry me, I know what I do is valuable, and enjoy it, and believe there is a future in it.
| | | | N.M. Eklund
France
Local time: 13:26
Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...
| | Coming to terms and taking advantage of the market | Jun 27, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
The point is: this is a business, and we need to be flexible and aware of the market and its potential. There is a lot more potential in this market than even most of the successful translators are aware of or have the energy to deal with. |
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You hit the nail on the head Kevin.
I believe a 'Business' translator can earn quite a lot of money and live very well, as long as we're flexible and wise enough to use the market to our advantage.
The first step is indeed becoming aware of the market and its problems and weaknesses, and the next is identifying its potential. A few years ago I felt in a rut too and its too easy to fall into a fatalistic point of view. The fact of the matter is that the world evolves, professions evolve, and we must evolve with it. At the same time we fight for our own principles, such as correct rates and educating the client about the value of a good translation. Following these ideas, I'm out of my rut and flying high. There will always be those clients that are looking for quick/cheap translations, and there will always be those clients looking specifically for a quality translator. Maybe there will be two groups of translators to fit these two types of demands.
I also understand Eleftherios' frustrated point of view because what he and the others have observed do exist in the market. It is a fact and it's a strong trend that overwhelms many translators, epecially new and 'junior' translators. However, it is important to know that if we're in a rut that has become unsatisfactory, it doesn't mean that it's all or nothing (suffering it or getting out of the profession).
I grew up in the the US surrounded by the meritocracy mentality. It's not so much a question of climbing each individual rung and getting all the right diplomas, it's the experience and what you can do with what you learned from this experience.
Living in France, I've seen a culture that's very attached to the opposite 'climb each rung' method, and yet despite this, my experience has opened more doors for me because I've used it to my advantage. Perhaps that's why I stay so positive about the market, I know I'm not obliged to sit back and accept these poor rates :
to boil it down to one maybe too basic point - If you don't like it , then change it. You know what you're talking about and you're able to have an influence on anothers, so you have the ability to change things in your favor. You're not as powerless as you may think.
| | | | Andrew Steel
Spain
Local time: 13:26
Spanish to English
| | Looking forward | Jun 27, 2008 |
As I understand it, this thread is essentially about what the future, let's say the next 5-10 years, holds for the translation profession.
The question is: What do we think it will look like and do we like what we see?
As several of the contributors to this thread have rightly pointed out, the future will be what we make it.
Unfortunately, 'we' as a profession often seem to be pulling in opposite directions, which means it's not clear which course our collective future will take.
Does it matter that there are hordes of amateurs out there willing to work for a fraction of the rate charged by everyone on this thread who's stated their commitment to quality, professionalism and a business-like approach?
Does it matter that thousands of shoe-string agencies are spamming virtually every company in the Yellow Pages at home and abroad with cut-price offers that lower potential end clients' price expectations, and that they're able to do it because they know they'll find plenty of free-lance translators who'll be glad of the work?
Who knows? But, what we really ought to ask ourselves is: Is ignoring them a sign of serene wisdom based on the certainty that it will not affect us? Or is it a sign of head-in-the-sand complacency that sooner or later will be rudely interrupted?
Again, who knows? No doubt some will remain unscathed whilst others will be hit hard. Perhaps it's happening already.
The important thing is to ask ourselves these questions and have these discussions, which is why Bernie Bierman's article, despite its blatantly provocative tone, is a valuable contribution to the debate.
Andrew
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