| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Will it never end? (rates - how many more such insults to our profession must we take?) Thread poster: Henry Hinds
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| I repeat my suggestion | Aug 10, 2008 |
As I have already suggested, the most efficient way to deal with this nuisance is to keep outsourcers from posting their rates in job postings and have them read the quotes received to see how much that translation is worth to the person who is going to work on it. You don't call up a lawyer, a doctor or a notary telling them "this is my price, take it or leave it", now, do you?
As always, I expect my post will go unanswered...
| | | | Henry Hinds 
United States
Local time: 20:00
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Not a "ME" problem | Aug 10, 2008 |
This is not a "ME" problem, it is a "WE" problem. As long as there are people willing to take dismal rates and produce dismal work, there will be dismal "agencies" willing to exploit the situation. This does not directly affect "ME" or some of "YOU", because some of us have a good market in which the value of our services is duly appreciated.
But it does affect our profession, and as members of it, this dismal "low end" out there indirectly affects ALL of us to some degree.
... See more This is not a "ME" problem, it is a "WE" problem. As long as there are people willing to take dismal rates and produce dismal work, there will be dismal "agencies" willing to exploit the situation. This does not directly affect "ME" or some of "YOU", because some of us have a good market in which the value of our services is duly appreciated.
But it does affect our profession, and as members of it, this dismal "low end" out there indirectly affects ALL of us to some degree.
We have already beaten this old horse to death many times, I just wonder what the solution is, and whether Proz is part of the solution or part of the problem. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 04:00
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Not worth bothering... | Aug 10, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As I have already suggested, the most efficient way to deal with this nuisance is to keep outsourcers from posting their rates in job postings and have them read the quotes received to see how much that translation is worth to the person who is going to work on it.
This would be most inconvenient - as it is now, if I see the low-end offer, I just hit the Del key in my mail reader.
If the proposed rate is hidden, I will have no way discerning those clients which are of no interest to me, so I will prepare my offer, wait for the answer, etc., wasting my time...
But it does affect our profession, and as members of it, this dismal "low end" out there indirectly affects ALL of us to some degree.
But there will always be a „low end” of the price range, by definition. And it will always be considered to be „dismal” by some.
| | | | USER0059 (X)
Finland
Local time: 05:00
English to Finnish
+ ...
| If I understand correctly, the filter already exists | Aug 10, 2008 |
Iza Szczypka wrote: Thor Kottelin wrote:
Having to sift through these USD 0.03 per word offers is not exactly the kind of added value that makes me happy about my investment in ProZ.com (jobs only) membership. There could be some filter available to sift off job notifications below the rate you personally consider the lowest acceptable.
As I understand it, such a filter already exists; I should not receive offers lower than my minimum rates. I do not know whether that filter is broken, or merely easy to circumvent.
With options to set 2-3 currency-related thresholds.
By preference, such a filter should calculate currency rates automatically.
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Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 20:00
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam
I'll answer, Viktoria. I think your suggestion is a good one, where job posters could not suggest rates, only translators.
That would not keep translators from offering "low, low bids" but it would at least keep us from becoming incensed about "low, low rates" being offered.
That "low end" would still be out there alive and well, but it would be less visible and perhaps less damaging to our profession in general.
| | | | | Lawyers and doctors are no machines | Aug 10, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
You don't call up a lawyer, a doctor or a notary telling them "this is my price, take it or leave it", now, do you?
Sometimes I did, sometimes they said "ok"* , and sometimes they said "Sorry, we are not allowed to do that".
Sometimes they even work for free* when they think the client is very poor and they are in a good mood, so you cannot prohibit other freelancers doing the same, or working for a symbolic amount.
*(except the notaries)
[Edited at 2008-08-10 17:25]
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 22:00
Member (2002)
French to English
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MODERATOR | a good starting point for sure | Aug 10, 2008 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
I'll answer, Viktoria. I think your suggestion is a good one, where job posters could not suggest rates, only translators.
That would not keep translators from offering "low, low bids" but it would at least keep us from becoming incensed about "low, low rates" being offered.
That "low end" would still be out there alive and well, but it would be less visible and perhaps less damaging to our profession in general.
| | | | | This would be a real improvement | Aug 10, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As I have already suggested, the most efficient way to deal with this nuisance is to keep outsourcers from posting their rates in job postings and have them read the quotes received to see how much that translation is worth to the person who is going to work on it.
I fully support Viktorias suggestion, this would really improve our position in the quoting process. But I doubt it very much that Proz will consider such a step.
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biankonera
Latvia
Local time: 05:00
Italian to Latvian
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| In my opinion... | Aug 10, 2008 |
I agree that people accepting such low rate jobs affect all of us (in one way or another), so I do believe such offers will end only when people will end underestimating themselves, their skills and what they do. As long as there will be people who dont value themselves as professionals and dont consider rates likes 0.03 USD to be a professional insult we will keep getting such offers. IMHO.
| | | | Mónica Algazi
Uruguay
Local time: 23:00
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
| THOROUGHLY AGREE WITH JABBERWOCK | Aug 10, 2008 |
If you're good enough, there is enough work for you, whatever your rate might be...
| | | | | Point confirmed | Aug 10, 2008 |
Jabberwock wrote:
I know from the start that they are operating in the completely different range of the market, that those clients will never be mine.
I made this point a few years ago, and I still agree with it. I would even encourage potential clients to express their political or religious views ... but we are at ProZ.com, where that's taboo.
I also thought about warning labels like those on cigarette packs:
CAUTION - Substandard rates may be detrimental to any service quality!
but after all, they did not stop me from smoking, either.
So the most effective protection against such "clients" I can imagine is to let them disclose themselves.
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 22:00
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As I have already suggested, the most efficient way to deal with this nuisance is to keep outsourcers from posting their rates in job postings and have them read the quotes received to see how much that translation is worth to the person who is going to work on it. You don't call up a lawyer, a doctor or a notary telling them "this is my price, take it or leave it", now, do you?
Fully agree
As always, I expect my post will go unanswered...
I hope this time will be different…
Henry Hinds wrote:
This is not a "ME" problem, it is a "WE" problem... I just wonder what the solution is, and whether Proz is part of the solution or part of the problem.
[/quote]
Sadly, I lean toward the second option.
But we are here to discuss the issue and be constructive.
Let me outline my point of view.
Premise
* Outsourcers don't pay for posting jobs and do benefit from using a free recruitment site.
* The site does not ask for a percentage of the assigned job’s fee.
* The site is supported mainly (I believe) from membership fees and advertising.
I am well aware that we live in a free market and that Proz.com defines itself (correct me if I’m wrong) as a venue, a platform, a virtual place where demand and supply meets, but I also believe that members should have their input in setting some kind of boundaries as far as the Proz.com’s job section is concerned.
That said, and in line with Viktoria’s proposal, this is my opinion:
Since the type of rate offered/dictated in the job posting in question and similar ones drive the market down and do not contribute to the prestige of the translation profession (these are my personal beliefs, but maybe one or two of you will agree), and the same postings are/can be perceived at the same time as offensive, disrespectful, and (clearly) unprofessional, I would propose to set a minimum visible “postable” rate.
All job offers below a set standard (to be agreed upon) would be presented to the potential candidates/publicly without the rate.
Just to be clear, for example:
Let’s decide to set the minimum “postable” rate at 0.10 USD/word.
Consequently all job offers below the set amount would be displayed without the rate. The offer could range from 0,00000000001 cent to 0,99 cents.
Let the translators apply with what they consider an acceptable honorarium (based on the type of job, language combination, software involved, place of residence, experience...etc ...ect), and let the outsourcer dig through the application for finding a suitable candidate.
This could be bothersome for them, I understand, but on the other hand they enjoy the recruitment service for free, so they should be willing to put some work for achieving their scope. Who knows, they might also be thrilled by the replies…
Conclusions & Advantages
This simple method would have multiple advantages:
* For the outsourcers - they will still be free to choose the lower bid, or they might decide that the lower bidders are also the less qualified translators for that particular job, and therefore opt for increasing their budget up a few notches...
* For the translators who work for low rates: they will still be able to offer their service at their price and take advantage of their membership and/or site user status.
* For the translators who work for higher rates: they won’t be bothered by more or less outrageous offers.
* For the translators in general: their professional image will be somewhat preserved.
* For the site: they won’t be bothered by this type of thread, maybe a few members will decide to renew their membership, maybe a few users will decide to buy their first membership, and also this can be advantageous for the overall site’s image.
Dear colleagues, site staff/founder what do you think about it?
Is it reasonable? Is it feasible?
I’ll be glad to hear/read your comments.
Kind Regards,
Addendum:
In the rate box could be visible the new acronym BMPR (Below Minimum Postable Rate). This way the bidders will be aware that the poster at that given time is not willing to offer more than 0.99 USD/word and simply decide not to apply...
Again, Kind Regards,
[Edited at 2008-08-11 03:07]
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Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:00
French to English
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| ...(these are my personal beliefs, but maybe one or two of you will agree)... | Aug 10, 2008 |
I doubt that I'm the only one who does!
| | | | | 0.03 per word may be too much money | Aug 10, 2008 |
bramasole wrote:
I do believe such offers will end only when people will end underestimating themselves, their skills and what they do. As long as there will be people who don't value themselves as professionals and don't consider rates likes 0.03 USD to be a professional insult we will keep getting such offers. IMHO.
I don't think that's always the case. Some days or weeks ago, I read a post in the Spanish forum written by a native Spanish speaking person, and I have never seen so many linguistic mistakes in such a small text. If she charged more than 0.02 per word she would be overestimating herself.
On the client's side, if they don't need more quality, why should they pay for a quality they don't need?. For example, in Spain household electrical appliances must have a manual in Spanish; but the law does not mention anything about its linguistic quality. If a company feels that manual's quality will not make them to sell more washing machines, why should they get and pay a high quality translation?. Yes, clients "get what they pay for", but what if some of them are not interested in a high quality translation?.
And on the translator's side, "we get what our quality is worth".
There are many segments in the market. Bad translators are not competitors for you. Clients who don't look for high quality shall never be interested in your work.
The only thing we must never do is editing or proofreading a bad translation. Did you pay peanuts for that translation? well, enjoy your monkey's work!!!, and next time you want quality, look for and pay a good translator; in that case, yes, I will edit or proofread it.
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