Will it never end? (rates - how many more such insults to our profession must we take?)
zooloo Germany Local time: 21:48 English to German + ...
Convincing all participants to adhere to some formalities
Oct 26, 2008
Henry Hinds wrote:
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We have already beaten this old horse to death many times, I just wonder what the solution is, and whether Proz is part of the solution or part of the problem.
Henry,
I am relatively new to the translation business and my impression is that best protection against an overall tendency by low end agencies to ride on undercutting rates is to keep just those new in the business informed about best practices.
It would start with the good habit that an agency contacting a potential translator with an offer should provide also clear and complete terms in the same correspondence, such as on payment, delivery and intended communication work flow, and ideally with a reference to some standardized rule set.
If this becomes habit among established professionals on both sides, it is also likely to happen between an established agency and a new translator, which will effectively guide the newcomer to the quality level that would be worthwhile to aim for anyway and which will go hand in hand with approaching market-usual rates.
As for low rates particularly on proz.com, I would personally fell contented right now to have filtering options at hand.
Thomas
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Arnaud HERVE France Local time: 21:48 English to French + ...
Consideration
Oct 27, 2008
Kevin Lossner wrote:
I almost hurt myself laughing at this one. My starting salary at an entry-level job in the early 80's was higher than this. I don't think janitors make that little these days in most parts of the US.
For full time janitors in respectable institutions, maybe, I won't argue with you on that one. However, we have recently seen a considerable rise of the working poor.
Maybe you are thinking of the situation three decades ago, with clear-cut unemployment on one side, and decent entry-level wages for low skills on the other side.
Those were times without the Internet and globalization, too. The amounts you mention make a very decent salary in quite a few countries. Which is fairly obvious for those who travel a bit.
Personally I don't see a reason to laugh. I have to make my career in this world.
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mattsmith Germany Local time: 21:48 German to English
Will it ever end - I'd be surprised
Oct 28, 2008
I think rates are generally on a downward spiral. I did my translation course in 2004. At the time I was using my German in a poorly paid marketing post and would regularly see translation jobs on offer in the UK paying around 20 - 25K and the more senior posts 30K - 35K upwards. Nowadays a junior post is often under 15K and a senior one 25K at the most, even in London. Since the translation industry is almost completely ununionised and the professional organisations such as the institute of translators and the institute of linguists are weak, and since many translators and translation companies are now based in countries where the cost of living is very low where they do work for clients in the developed world via email, there has been huge downwards pressure on the rates.
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Ralf Lemster Germany Local time: 21:48 Member (2003) English to German + ...
Comparing apples to pears
Oct 28, 2008
Hi Robert,
I think rates are generally on a downward spiral. I did my translation course in 2004. At the time I was using my German in a poorly paid marketing post and would regularly see translation jobs on offer in the UK paying around 20 - 25K and the more senior posts 30K - 35K upwards. Nowadays a junior post is often under 15K and a senior one 25K at the most, even in London.
Referring to rates, you're quoting salaries.
Since the translation industry is almost completely ununionised and the professional organisations such as the institute of translators and the institute of linguists are weak, and since many translators and translation companies are now based in countries where the cost of living is very low where they do work for clients in the developed world via email, there has been huge downwards pressure on the rates.
This assumes that those living in countries with a low cost of living (assuming that stereotype is accurate - often, it isn't) automatically quote low prices. From what I see in the market, that's not quite true - the cheapest offers in German-English financial translations I have received (and rejected) were from colleagues in Germany and the UK (including London). Go figure...
Best regards,
Ralf
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mattsmith Germany Local time: 21:48 German to English
But that's because it's a market
Oct 28, 2008
... and the rates they are quoting might seem low to you but probably seem average or fair to them, because they are already used to dealing with cheap service providers or know they could go to a cheaper service provider if they wanted to.
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RNAtranslator Spain Local time: 21:48 English to Spanish + ...
It's not just a market, it is a GLOBALIZED market
Oct 28, 2008
robertsmith wrote:
... and the rates they are quoting might seem low to you but probably seem average or fair to them, because they are already used to dealing with cheap service providers or know they could go to a cheaper service provider if they wanted to.
It's not just a market, it is a GLOBALIZED market. For this reason it is absolutely irrelevant if the translator feels that the money received is big or small for his/her needs. In a globalized market, a certain work done with a certain quality, can be sold in exchange of a certain amount of money, regardless it is or not what the freelancer needs or wants.
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Harry Bornemann Germany Partial member (2002) English to German + ...
Certainty?
Oct 28, 2008
RNAtranslator wrote:
It's not just a market, it is a GLOBALIZED market. For this reason it is absolutely irrelevant if the translator feels that the money received is big or small for his/her needs.
In a globalized market, a certain work done with a certain quality, can be sold in exchange of a certain amount of money,
This could work only in a fully transparent market, which does not exist in reality, where transparency and certainty are mostly poor.
There are many vendors offering products or services of similar quality, but it is not the case that only the cheapest ones for a certain quality can survive - otherwise 99% of the existing companies would have to close down immediately.
I think the globalised market is spreading the prices in both directions because it comprises a greater variety.
[Edited at 2008-10-28 22:35]
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RNAtranslator Spain Local time: 21:48 English to Spanish + ...
Yes, marketing is a factor too
Oct 30, 2008
Good point, Harry. I should have added marketing as a factor. Let me rewrite my idea: "in a globalized market, a certain work done with a certain quality, with a good enough marketing effort, can be sold in exchange of a certain amount of money, regardless it is or not what the freelancer needs or wants".
If the very best translator in the world were unable to market his work, may be he should have to charge 0.02 per word to the only three clients he was able to reach and convince that he is able to translate.
Following Sylver thoughts, if the translator is very poor, he might need to accept 0.02 per word regardless the quality he delivers, as he can not waste a single client paying that much. But if the marketing efforts and abilities are, let's say, standard, after some time that person will be able to charge what the market is willing to pay for the quality that person delivers.
My point is that it is a big mistake to calculate the rate a freelancer should charge according to that person's needs; it is the product/service, its quality and marketing efforts what fixes the prize after an initial period of time needed to adjust the price to the market. That's why Proz calculator is useless. A reasonably good translator living in the poorest village in Rwanda would become by far the richest person in that village, while another one living in Manhattan would have problems to pay his small apartment's rent, but the one in Rwanda would be an stupid charging less and the one living in Manhattan would have no clients if he charges more.
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Amal Al-Arfaj Saudi Arabia Local time: 22:48 Member (2005) English to Arabic + ...
Location can affect the availability of jobs
Oct 31, 2008
RNAtranslator wrote:
That's why Proz calculator is useless.
Well, the rate calculator can be useful for other things, not just calculating how much one should always charge based on their needs. One can use it to calculate the minimum rate they can afford if they want to lower their rates in some special circumstances (e.g. a project from family... etc).
A reasonably good translator living in the poorest village in Rwanda would become by far the richest person in that village, while another one living in Manhattan would have problems to pay his small apartment's rent, but the one in Rwanda would be an stupid charging less and the one living in Manhattan would have no clients if he charges more.
Location is an important factor. The person in Rwanda might not get as much of direct clients (or even agencies) like the one living in Manhattan even if they market themselves enough for many reasons, (e.g. payment methods accepted, level of exposure to direct clients, certain certification needed... etc). Thus, he/she might need to work locally for very low rates, or have to charge/accept lower rates when working with international agencies (who support the payment method they use for example). After all, they can afford it so no problem.
Just a thought while I agree to your point too.
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